Scotlands choice.

mkpdavies · 12-12-2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Mastricht treaty voted for

Lie.

Not sure about the others, but based on this blatant falsehood, I think I will take all of it with a sack load of salt, as per normal.

rjt · 13-12-2006, 07:31 AM

I would stongly suggest you check Hansard sir, when Masstrict was made a vote of confidence Knapman, Gill and Gorman where in the lobby with Major, Heath, Heseltine and the rest.

When EU financing was made an issue of confidence in 1994, Knapman was in the lobby with Major, Heath and Hesletine. Or and what did Goramn and Gill do? Abstain!!!!! wow that took some guts didnt it.

Perhaps now you will withdraw your remark?

mkpdavies · 13-12-2006, 08:38 AM

Nope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Rebels

Those who had the whip withdrawn included:

Richard Body
Nicholas Budgen
Tony Marlow
John Wilkinson
Richard Shepherd
Teresa Gorman
Christopher Gill
Teddy Taylor
Rupert Allason
Other rebels were:

Bill Cash
Nicholas Winterton
Iain Duncan Smith
James Cran
Michael Lord
John Biffen
Michael Spicer
Rhodes Boyson
George Gardiner
Roger Knapman
Liam Fox only signed 1st Early Day Motion against Maastricht
Alan Duncan only signed 1st Early Day Motion against Maastricht
David Willetts only signed 1st Early Day Motion against Maastricht
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Rebels"

rjt · 13-12-2006, 09:06 AM

I am sorry but in 1993 there where two votes in the house of commons.

1) A Labour motion on the social chapter-the vote was tied and the speaker quite properly voted with the governement as the policy did not gain a majority.

2) The governement ammendment commending its Eurpoean policy was voted down.

At that point the PM called a vote of confidence in the governements handling of European policy for the following day.

Only one Tory-Allison.R voted against the governement all the rest supported the governement fearing they may lose their seats in an upcoming election.

I have already acknoledged that Goramn and Gill abstained on the European Finance vote, because they where too afraid to vote agiast. Knapman voted for it.

So when it was a choice of career versus country, we know what they did.

mkpdavies · 13-12-2006, 10:03 AM

Well that's not the Maastricht vote is it, but if that's the way you want to SPIN it, that's fine by me.

For what it's worth I agree it was pathetic of the MPs to try to protect their own backs like that, but then people often put their own lifes first.

rjt · 13-12-2006, 10:12 AM

I agree with your second point and that is the real problem for your party and mine.

mkpdavies · 13-12-2006, 10:38 AM

You will never be able to change human nature.

That's why you need mechanisms to take it into account. IE true democracy and accountability.

Pushing powers up doesn't give you that.

Parliamentry democracy on a small enough scale, backed by the safety net of Direct Democracy will.

13-12-2006, 08:38 AM	#23 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	Nope. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Rebels Those who had the whip withdrawn included: Richard Body Nicholas Budgen Tony Marlow John Wilkinson Richard Shepherd Teresa Gorman Christopher Gill Teddy Taylor Rupert Allason Other rebels were: Bill Cash Nicholas Winterton Iain Duncan Smith James Cran Michael Lord John Biffen Michael Spicer Rhodes Boyson George Gardiner Roger Knapman Liam Fox only signed 1st Early Day Motion against Maastricht Alan Duncan only signed 1st Early Day Motion against Maastricht David Willetts only signed 1st Early Day Motion against Maastricht Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Rebels" __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

13-12-2006, 10:03 AM	#25 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	Well that's not the Maastricht vote is it, but if that's the way you want to SPIN it, that's fine by me. For what it's worth I agree it was pathetic of the MPs to try to protect their own backs like that, but then people often put their own lifes first. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

13-12-2006, 10:38 AM	#27 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	You will never be able to change human nature. That's why you need mechanisms to take it into account. IE true democracy and accountability. Pushing powers up doesn't give you that. Parliamentry democracy on a small enough scale, backed by the safety net of Direct Democracy will. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

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13-12-2006, 07:31 AM	#22 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,232	I would stongly suggest you check Hansard sir, when Masstrict was made a vote of confidence Knapman, Gill and Gorman where in the lobby with Major, Heath, Heseltine and the rest. When EU financing was made an issue of confidence in 1994, Knapman was in the lobby with Major, Heath and Hesletine. Or and what did Goramn and Gill do? Abstain!!!!! wow that took some guts didnt it. Perhaps now you will withdraw your remark?

13-12-2006, 09:06 AM	#24 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,232	I am sorry but in 1993 there where two votes in the house of commons. 1) A Labour motion on the social chapter-the vote was tied and the speaker quite properly voted with the governement as the policy did not gain a majority. 2) The governement ammendment commending its Eurpoean policy was voted down. At that point the PM called a vote of confidence in the governements handling of European policy for the following day. Only one Tory-Allison.R voted against the governement all the rest supported the governement fearing they may lose their seats in an upcoming election. I have already acknoledged that Goramn and Gill abstained on the European Finance vote, because they where too afraid to vote agiast. Knapman voted for it. So when it was a choice of career versus country, we know what they did.

13-12-2006, 10:12 AM	#26 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,232	I agree with your second point and that is the real problem for your party and mine.