Greens and BNP beat labour in Henley

a swansong 4 europe · 02-07-2008, 12:05 AM

Rubbish presented well is still rubbish? You could have not written those words better!

As for hens? !!!

No amount of colour is going to make ANYTHING political appear better or achieve more if the message AND the messenger is out of favour. I would choose straight forward black and white leaflets any day, they cost less and, like B/W photos, are far more "atmospheric".

Doh! Maybe that is why virtually ALL newspapers still print news in BLACK AND WHITE. Do you get it now?

Wowbanger TIP · 02-07-2008, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a swansong 4 europe

You really are going off on one here, there is NOTHING in any of that nonsense that is of any relevence to the present political situation we are in. You have NO experience to be able to claim knowledge by your own admission, and have very little to contribute positively to any of this at all.

I am really starting to get p*ssed off with your acidic attitude which is a shame because I could wel start to like you, but until you get BACK involved for another 5 years or more, don't even try to pretend that you know what you are talking about.

You write like it is some sort of thesis cr*p you want to submit for marking!

I haven't got five years to waste losing elections, and neither have you.

I have never written a thesis, but I did once write a dissertation. On Hugh Dowding's tactics during the Battle of Britain.

Wowbanger TIP · 02-07-2008, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a swansong 4 europe

"We have talked about these "amazing times" before, repeatedly. You apparently have not been listening so once again. 9/11 + London bombings + Burnley + Oldham - Griffin - Collett - Sundry other Nazis = BNP success til 2006. Since then the Party has been losing support, in every sense of that word."

I am the listening type, I simply do not listen to unsubstantiated claims when I read them, and you provide NOTHING to suggest to me that the BNP are "losing support in every sense of that word". If that were the case, then they would be falling back to their pre 2000 levels of support that they 'enjoyed' for the previous 20 years, and they are self evidently not. Perhaps you simply have little recollection of the trials and tribulations that nationalist parties have had to endure for the past 30-40 years?

For example, in the 1970's the NF (which is a reasonable annalogy) achieved some remarkable election results but never won a single seat anywhere and only ever achieved ONE 12.5%+ election result in a Westminster seat, they also had a far larger membership than the present BNP. By 1979, the NF was seeing its share of the vote drop DRAMATICALLY, in some areas by 1-2 thirds, and produce an appalling GE result in 1979. It was very easy to see the NF support had collapsed, and it that sense, easily shown to be "losing support". This was self evident by the virtual collapse of support and membership that occurred after 1979. I know, I was there having come in unawares right at the start of the downfall.

I think your assumptions on leaflets have absolutely no basis in fact OR experience, as you do not seem to have had the benefit of either.

The present BNP is a very different animal, and your associations for the party to that of 9/11 are meaningless because YOU think it should have had an impact on the fortunes for the BNP. Why? It never had an impact on the fortunes of any OTHER party either, with the exception of the limited local success enjoyed by Respect and that was only the consqeuence of the following Iraq war.

The success of the BNP in the last ten years or so has been almost single handedly the result of the Labour government's atrocious handling of the asylum issue, its impact on the UK and the fact that an increasing number of Labour supporters have simply deserted the party for the BNP. Add to that, the virtual reformation of the BNP by Griffin and his supporters and the ability of the BNP to exploit the misfortunes of the Labour Party and you will have seen a total transformation from a party previously bogged down under the weight of Tyndalist authoritarian bullsh*t. That is it, nothing else.

As for a year/s involvmenet in the BNP, I was obviously right when I said you had no staying power!

Seriously, you think that a year in ANY party gives you the knowledge and wisdom to be able to pontificate about that party's prospects? I would be embarrassed to even admit I was in for just a year, let alone claim to know the answers to this or that problem. I wonder what made you bother to join? Over the last 30 years I have seen COUNTLESS people like yourself come and go because they assumed to be able to break eggs with big sticks and that everything is so clear cut and straightforward in the world of politics. Unfortunately, it is not, and there will be plenty more from where you came from who I suspect will be of equally little use in the long run.

I am embarrassed to admit I was in the BNP for a year. I don't think I've ever been more embarrassed by anything. No doubt you have seen thousands of people like me come and go in your epic marathon of defeats at the hands of the Establishment. But here is a radical thought, was that a good thing? Could it be that having taken a look at the "nationalist" political machine, as represented by people such as yourself, they decided they would better spend the remaining years of Britain's decline swearing at the telly and swigging back Stella?

You old skool boy's crack me up. "Listen here sonny I don't care about "tactics", I've been getting thrashed by Labour since before you were born, when you have lost twenty consecutive elections then maybe I listen to what you have to say. Now fire up the movable type and bring forth the parchment"

Dissident Congress · 02-07-2008, 10:41 AM

The problem with canvassing is that it only works if the organisation is a household name. If canvassing for support is done in a location where the BNP is very unfamiliar, or with a largely unheard of outfit (such as the Populist Party, Dissident Congress, and possibly the English Democrats) then it is likely to result in less than 10 supporters per council ward.

Lib-Lab-Con can canvass for support and pinpoint people who will vote for them. Small parties don't have this luxury unless they have been stomping around the area for some time beforehand.

Wowbanger TIP · 02-07-2008, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dissident Congress

The problem with canvassing is that it only works if the organisation is a household name. If canvassing for support is done in a location where the BNP is very unfamiliar, or with a largely unheard of outfit (such as the Populist Party, Dissident Congress, and possibly the English Democrats) then it is likely to result in less than 10 supporters per council ward.

Lib-Lab-Con can canvass for support and pinpoint people who will vote for them. Small parties don't have this luxury unless they have been stomping around the area for some time beforehand.

Exactly. Which it is necessary to capture the BNP and it's brand recognition. The BNP's fame was built largely by Searchlight, they won't make the same mistake again, stupid as they are.

Mikeuk · 02-07-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wowbanger TIP

Exactly. Which it is necessary to capture the BNP and it's brand recognition. The BNP's fame was built largely by Searchlight, they won't make the same mistake again, stupid as they are.

Articles in the current Searchlight seem to bear that out.

blueblood1920 · 02-07-2008, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dissident Congress

The problem with canvassing is that it only works if the organisation is a household name. If canvassing for support is done in a location where the BNP is very unfamiliar, or with a largely unheard of outfit (such as the Populist Party, Dissident Congress, and possibly the English Democrats) then it is likely to result in less than 10 supporters per council ward.

Lib-Lab-Con can canvass for support and pinpoint people who will vote for them. Small parties don't have this luxury unless they have been stomping around the area for some time beforehand.

Which is why leafletting is essential at first, it gets people used to seeing our message and logo coming through their door. So when we then do canvassing it actually gets them intrested in who has been posting the lit the past year and ask any questions they want answered about what they have read.

a swansong 4 europe · 02-07-2008, 06:37 PM

"..You old skool boy's crack me up. "Listen here sonny I don't care about "tactics", I've been getting thrashed by Labour since before you were born, when you have lost twenty consecutive elections then maybe I listen to what you have to say. Now fire up the movable type and bring forth the parchment".. "

Yes, it must be so amusing to you. Yes, again, I will no doubt see many more like yourself come and go, and THAT is the problem. Nationalism for all its faults - in this country at least - has the amazing knack of recruiting to its ranks short-term firebrands and hotheads who come on the scene thinking they know EXACTLY what the problems are and where the solutions lie and usually, when they don't get their own short-tempered way, they scarper off and throw insults at their former political associates saying they have a stuck-in-the-mud attitude offering a no-hope agenda.

Time proves people like that wrong, and it's almost a certainly good thing that nationalism in places like Scotland, no matter what anyone here thinks of that term, did NOT have people like you in its ranks for the greater part of its history. Likewise with the Socialist movement or that of the Irish nationalists, all off which had to wait GENERATIONS to achieve their goals, and no doubt COUNTLESS other examples around the world.

Sadly, for those that expect things to be resolved quickly, they always fall foul of the slow and often long process that achieving power can take. I mean for god's sake, many of those against the establishment of the EU in all its previous forms have been battling for over THIRTY years to see even a glimmer of hope in the steady and deliberate eroding of the establishment's position.

You, and others like you, assume to have the ability to see things in a light that no one else manages to see, and that only YOUR way is the way forward. Time and time again, people like yourself FAIL and FAIL again to actually establish with an utterly clear and unconditional example of an election win that absolutely proves your theories right. There is ALWAYS an answer to your position and that is to go out and actually PROVE everyone else wrong and yourself right.

Do this by either working within an organisation to achieve its goals choosing your own local operational tactics and showing the rest of the world your fantastic strategic abilities by actually WINNING a seat on a representative body. Do that, or leave and set up either your own organisation to do the same. Perhaps join another, and likewise - assuming your not simply riding on the back of an already established political and electoral machine - also prove that your have the skills necessary to produce results. If that is beyond you, don't accuse others of failure and stay out of the political kitchen as you're clearly unable to withstand the heat.

If you are a parent, then god help those kids, as you must be awfully tired of waiting for them to grow up.

British-Conservatism · 03-07-2008, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wowbanger TIP

The technology and resources available were insufficient to produce higher quality material. In order to achieve superiority in this field the Party would need to use centralized high quality machines and resources supported by internet connected design team and a reliable logistic operation (Business Post, Geo-Logistics, Parcel Force, Lynx, TNT, or any of the others rather than the van). Obviously this is within the capabilities of Domino's Pizza and the local Chinese Take Away but totally beyond the BNP as it is currently constituted.

Moreover this is not even the point. Leaflet's are stage one of political activism. They are cheap and can be deployed by even the lowest quality activists, however their penetration is pathetic regardless of design. Even using the latest advertising techniques leaflets alone are incapable of achieving the required swing in 99% of cases.

More to the point as an activist in the BNP I was in no position to influence tactics in my local groups. The most I could do was try and gently encourage more sophisticated techniques and gather as much information as I could on why this was a good idea. Instead I simply supported the collectively decided statrgy in the interests of unity regardless of my strong suspicion that they it was doomed and in the interest of trying to make the case for reform in the ashes of defeat. While the leadership offer no, well leadership, on the subject of tactical doctrine and remain wed to leaflet barrages as the tactic of choice, what chance of reform is there? No less a figure than Kemp defended leafleting against my advocation of canvassing (as a tiny) step foward on the BNP forum itself.

Hopeless, pitiful, clueless, naive, dark age, grossly incompetent and S*** thick. All generous adjectives which could be applied to the BNP's standard tactical model.

Hight quality leaflets are cheap and easy to produce.
As for canvasing you could have stood in your own ward and canvased that.
Stop making excuses for doing nothing.

British-Conservatism · 03-07-2008, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a swansong 4 europe

"The BNP have been systematically taking knives to gun fights for years while Griffin and Co looked on. We know and have known for years that the Party can win with basic political tactics and yet these are still unknown to most members and even substantial numbers of organizers."

You speak with such thorough knowledge of the last 9 years or so that it amazes me that you are not the person you obviously hoped to become.

Perhaps, according to your wisdom, it explains why the BNP have made actual progress in areas that where simply beyond reach in the previous 20 years of the party's history, and simply non-achievable in the days of supposed glory for the National Front.

How long have you been involved in politics of the "right", I am curious, because if you had any long-term history you would have realised what amazing times we now live in.

Great post.

02-07-2008, 10:41 AM	#204 (permalink)
Dissident Congress Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 750	The problem with canvassing is that it only works if the organisation is a household name. If canvassing for support is done in a location where the BNP is very unfamiliar, or with a largely unheard of outfit (such as the Populist Party, Dissident Congress, and possibly the English Democrats) then it is likely to result in less than 10 supporters per council ward. Lib-Lab-Con can canvass for support and pinpoint people who will vote for them. Small parties don't have this luxury unless they have been stomping around the area for some time beforehand. __________________ Dissident Congress Promoting Populist Patriotism Our Nation - Our People - Our Heritage - Our Future

02-07-2008, 06:37 PM	#208 (permalink)
a swansong 4 europe Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 411	"..You old skool boy's crack me up. "Listen here sonny I don't care about "tactics", I've been getting thrashed by Labour since before you were born, when you have lost twenty consecutive elections then maybe I listen to what you have to say. Now fire up the movable type and bring forth the parchment".. " Yes, it must be so amusing to you. Yes, again, I will no doubt see many more like yourself come and go, and THAT is the problem. Nationalism for all its faults - in this country at least - has the amazing knack of recruiting to its ranks short-term firebrands and hotheads who come on the scene thinking they know EXACTLY what the problems are and where the solutions lie and usually, when they don't get their own short-tempered way, they scarper off and throw insults at their former political associates saying they have a stuck-in-the-mud attitude offering a no-hope agenda. Time proves people like that wrong, and it's almost a certainly good thing that nationalism in places like Scotland, no matter what anyone here thinks of that term, did NOT have people like you in its ranks for the greater part of its history. Likewise with the Socialist movement or that of the Irish nationalists, all off which had to wait GENERATIONS to achieve their goals, and no doubt COUNTLESS other examples around the world. Sadly, for those that expect things to be resolved quickly, they always fall foul of the slow and often long process that achieving power can take. I mean for god's sake, many of those against the establishment of the EU in all its previous forms have been battling for over THIRTY years to see even a glimmer of hope in the steady and deliberate eroding of the establishment's position. You, and others like you, assume to have the ability to see things in a light that no one else manages to see, and that only YOUR way is the way forward. Time and time again, people like yourself FAIL and FAIL again to actually establish with an utterly clear and unconditional example of an election win that absolutely proves your theories right. There is ALWAYS an answer to your position and that is to go out and actually PROVE everyone else wrong and yourself right. Do this by either working within an organisation to achieve its goals choosing your own local operational tactics and showing the rest of the world your fantastic strategic abilities by actually WINNING a seat on a representative body. Do that, or leave and set up either your own organisation to do the same. Perhaps join another, and likewise - assuming your not simply riding on the back of an already established political and electoral machine - also prove that your have the skills necessary to produce results. If that is beyond you, don't accuse others of failure and stay out of the political kitchen as you're clearly unable to withstand the heat. If you are a parent, then god help those kids, as you must be awfully tired of waiting for them to grow up. Last edited by a swansong 4 europe; 02-07-2008 at 06:39 PM.

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02-07-2008, 12:05 AM	#201 (permalink)
a swansong 4 europe Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 411	Rubbish presented well is still rubbish? You could have not written those words better! As for hens? !!! No amount of colour is going to make ANYTHING political appear better or achieve more if the message AND the messenger is out of favour. I would choose straight forward black and white leaflets any day, they cost less and, like B/W photos, are far more "atmospheric". Doh! Maybe that is why virtually ALL newspapers still print news in BLACK AND WHITE. Do you get it now?