To what extent are the English Anglo-Saxon?

BonnieDundee · 03-07-2008, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Constantine

Hi BonnieDundee

Please can you give out some references to these genetic and archaelogical studies so that they can be read.

Regards

Andrew

There was tha BBC program which was pretty important. The others are easiest found through looking at wikipedia.

Sub-Roman Britain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BonnieDundee · 04-07-2008, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Constantine

From The Times July 19, 2006 England's apartheid roots

The Anglo-Saxons triumphed by a policy of segregation by Mark Henderson

THE Anglo-Saxons, who invaded Britain from the 5th century AD, used a system of “medieval apartheid” to drive the indigenous population to extinction, according to new genetic research.

Scientists have discovered that genes from a small population of Anglo-Saxon immigrants supplanted almost completely those of the native Britons, most probably by using institutionalised discrimination to outbreed them.

When the Anglo-Saxons reached Britain from what is now Germany, the Netherlands and Denmark, between the 5th and 7th centuries, they were outnumbered by indigenous Celts. The Anglo-Saxon invaders numbered between 10,000-200,000, compared with an estimated 2 million natives. Within just 15 generations, however, Anglo-Saxon genes had so multiplied that they accounted for more than half the male DNA in the population of what is now England. In the modern population the DNA is even more heavily Germanic in origin.

A new study led by Mark Thomas, of University College London, has shown that this remarkable spread of Anglo-Saxon genes probably was accomplished by a form of institutionalised racism, not dissimilar from the apartheid system of 20th-century South Africa.

A computer simulation that tested several scenarios found that the best fit for the spread of Anglo-Saxon genes was one in which the dominant but outnumbered ethnic group was banned from intermarrying with their British subjects and serfs. Dr Thomas said: “The native Britons were genetically and culturally absorbed by the Anglo-Saxons over a period of as little as a few hundred years. An initially small invading Anglo-Saxon elite could have established themselves by having more children who survived to adulthood, thanks to their military power and economic advantage. We believe that they also prevented the native British genes getting into the Anglo-Saxon population by restricting intermarriage in a system of apartheid that left the country culturally and genetically Germanised. This is exactly what we see today — a population of largely Germanic genetic origin, speaking a principally German language.”

[AJC note: the above article was printed in a heavyweight journal and supports the answer that the English are mainly Anglo-Saxon in origin....]

This has been one of the suggestions of what happened, but there are many archaeological theories and mass immigration, wipeout and enslavement theories are not popular at the moment. The general consensus among archaeologists is much the same as geneticists, if not stronger, that a large, if not dominant, part of the post-Roman population were and remained the people who were here in the Roman times and long before that.

cassie · 05-07-2008, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unionist

I find the history itself fascinating but I don't see how the genetic make-up of the English population is important to us today.

I tend to agree with this line. Indeed, I go further and suggest that it is regrettable the political objective of securing a parliament for England - whether without or without the framework of the UK - has become so intertwined with the subject of race!

I do not recollect the proponents of devolved power for Scotland and Wales being eternally connected with discussions about Scottish or Welsh identity or how the Celticism of one was [is] different from the other.

I suspect that opponents of an England Parliament have deliberately fostered these kinds of debates in order to imbue the subject with racist overtones. Indeed, using the term 'English' - which, being both a noun and adjective, is less precise than 'England' - promotes the idea that an English Parliament is solely for the English! One could also suggest that the name 'English Democrats' also implies exclusivity in a way that 'England Democrats' would not! [In the light of some comments here, one might wonder whether the aptly name 'Free ENGLAND Party' was arrived at more by accident than design?]

Ultimately, nationality relates to particular territory rather its inhabitants. Therefore, it is more appropriate to refer to the nation of England, rather than the nation of the English.

Who occupied England - and even the territory bearing that name varied over time as evidenced by first Hadrian's Wall, the Antonine Wall and in more recent times, the Local Government Act 1972 - centuries ago is of interest but, by no means relevant to the self determination we now seek for its current inhabitants.

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BonnieDundee · 05-07-2008, 10:32 AM

Alot of that post was coherent and worthwhile. Congrats Cassie!

david H · 05-07-2008, 02:57 PM

No wonder no one supports the EDP. Nationhood is essentially the historic association of ethnically related people in their territory. Those who move away start to develop a different identity and those who are unrelated who move in begin to weaken it.

Northumbrian · 05-07-2008, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by david H

No wonder no one supports the EDP. Nationhood is essentially the historic association of ethnically related people in their territory. Those who move away start to develop a different identity and those who are unrelated who move in begin to weaken it.

True. English nationalism, unlike Scottish nationalism, does not have the luxury of being purely civic on account of its much higher immigration.

cassie · 06-07-2008, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by david H

No wonder no one supports the EDP. Nationhood is essentially the historic association of ethnically related people in their territory. Those who move away start to develop a different identity and those who are unrelated who move in begin to weaken it.

Your conclusion about the EDP is not only unsubstantiated but incorrect and unfair!

No wonder it is difficult to take you seriously.

You make the mistake so many anti-English do of attributing elements to the goal of creating an England Parliament which do not necessarily apply.

----

david H · 06-07-2008, 02:15 AM

What does that mean? I believe the English are an ethnic group not just anyone who happens to be on a area of land at any given moment. I don't know whereyou get the idea I am anti-English from. I am the one who writes articles in support of England and English culture. Where are your articles?
Furthermore, was it necessary to be insulting? Can you not discuss an issue without beiung offensive?

cassie · 06-07-2008, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by david H

What does that mean? I believe the English are an ethnic group not just anyone who happens to be on a area of land at any given moment. I don't know where you get the idea I am anti-English from. I am the one who writes articles in support of England and English culture. Where are your articles?
Furthermore, was it necessary to be insulting? Can you not discuss an issue without beiung offensive?

It means that, without any justification, you are attributing attitudes to the EDP which are both untrue and unfair! How insulting is that?

_

david H · 06-07-2008, 11:44 AM

How can it be unfair when I was commenting on a post that is on the forum in plain English? That is why it does not need substantiating by me. It is there before our eyes.

05-07-2008, 10:32 AM	#14 (permalink)
BonnieDundee Uber Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Between Mallaig and Cornwall. Posts: 2,809	Alot of that post was coherent and worthwhile. Congrats Cassie! __________________ "It is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday facilitate a police state." -Bruce Schneier How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your TV; build your own cabin and pss off front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.* Edward Abbey Leopold Kohr.

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05-07-2008, 02:57 PM	#15 (permalink)
david H Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,918	No wonder no one supports the EDP. Nationhood is essentially the historic association of ethnically related people in their territory. Those who move away start to develop a different identity and those who are unrelated who move in begin to weaken it.

06-07-2008, 02:15 AM	#18 (permalink)
david H Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,918	What does that mean? I believe the English are an ethnic group not just anyone who happens to be on a area of land at any given moment. I don't know whereyou get the idea I am anti-English from. I am the one who writes articles in support of England and English culture. Where are your articles? Furthermore, was it necessary to be insulting? Can you not discuss an issue without beiung offensive?

06-07-2008, 11:44 AM	#20 (permalink)
david H Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,918	How can it be unfair when I was commenting on a post that is on the forum in plain English? That is why it does not need substantiating by me. It is there before our eyes.