The Benefits of the Union

Richard the Lionheart · 07-05-2008, 10:39 AM

I have asked this in other places, and have yet to receive a proper reply. Now, as this a very pro-unionist forum, I'm sure there are a lot of people here that can put forward a lot of information that shows the union to be beneficial to all its member nations. Tony Blair once said that Scotland received a £10 bilion "union dividend". Does anyone know what Englands is?

Please, if you are going to post a reply, could you support the statement you make?

Northumbrian · 07-05-2008, 05:46 PM

The only defence of the Union I've heard on this forum is that it keeps our seat at the UN next to the Americans.

Don't know about you, but I'm convinced!

Richard the Lionheart · 07-05-2008, 09:33 PM

The silence on this thread is deafening!

Unionist · 07-05-2008, 09:44 PM

I am not one to say that the Union should be defended at all costs but I do believe when we consider the Union from the point of view of the alternatives - or the 'opportunity cost' - it will be seen to be the better option. I am not a British nationalist but I am very definitely opposed to English nationalism, thus I am by default a Unionist.

Here are a few points I would add for consideration:

Demography
A large proportion of the population in England and Wales is descended from the Scots and Irish. Indeed, Scotland's population has been held down in the past by migration to England. In 1901, England's population was 30.5 million compared to 50.8 million in 2006. Scotland's population in the same period has increased from 4.5 million to just 5.1 million - hardly a comparable increase. Part of the explanation is that many Scots have moved South.

North Sea Oil and Gas
It is difficult to say exactly what proportion of North Sea Oil should be allocated to Scotland in terms of GDP, but 60% of the total would be a modest estimate. (Statisticians commonly cite 75% and 90% for indicative figures but normally North Sea oil and gas is subsumed under UK GDP in general.) Oil and gas accounted for over £22 billion 'value added' to the UK economy in 2006, so even a modest estimate of Scotland's 'contribution' in this sector would be put at over £13 billion.

Parliamentary Arithmetic
The so-called West Lothian Question points out the anomaly that Scottish MPs can vote on England-only matters while English MPs have no reciprocal votes on Scottish matters since these are reserved for the Scottish Parliament. In fact, the advantage is squarely in England's favour. Looked at from another point of view, Scottish MPs have 9% of the voting rights on English domestic issues such as health, education and transport. By contrast, English MPs have 82% of the votes on the UK matters, including Scotland, such as social security, macroeconomic policy, immigration, defence and foreign affairs. In fact, the UK parliament is largely and English parliament and it determines the budget for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. If you want to complain about the Barnet formula, note that it is English-dominated governments that have created and maintained it in place. Speaking purely selfishly from an English point of view, the minor allocation of votes to Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs in the Commons barely affects England's ability to dominate the Union. The temporary preponderance of Scots in the upper echelons of the Labour party reflects the fact that the Labour party was nearly decimated in much of England in the 1980s, but Scotland provided a continuing base of support throughout that time. (By the way, the worst possible situation - worse than an independent England - would be a federal UK in which the other parts of the UK would demand, as with other federal systems, an equal say in issues such as defence and macroeconomic policy.)

Defence and Strategic Issues
The Union is good for us in strategic terms and extends our home defences massively. What might happen in defence terms if Scotland left the Union is purely speculation but it would require a significant rethink of our defences. The strategic interest, incidentally, was the main incentive for us to form the Union three hundred years ago.

History
For generations now, the Scots, Welsh and English have lived together and fought together. We share a common language and have many aspects of our culture in common. The idea that we might have a border between our countries is unthinkable. Historically the Scots, Welsh and Irish have made huge contributions in the military, in governance of the Empire and in the sciences and arts. The Scottish Enlightenment has helped to shape the modern era.

Andy Stewart
OK, I won't push this one...

blank_frackis · 07-05-2008, 10:13 PM

We don't need cost/benefit analsyes in this context. We don't pick and choose the constituent parts of our country on the basis of economic contribution, Britain exists because we're all British.

Richard the Lionheart · 07-05-2008, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blank_frackis

We don't need cost/benefit analsyes in this context. We don't pick and choose the constituent parts of our country on the basis of economic contribution, Britain exists because we're all British.

Speak for yourself mate, I'm English and proud of it!

BonnieDundee · 08-05-2008, 12:08 AM

It must be noted that the union does not imply any real powers for the central gov't. I support a ceremonial head of state for the union with weaker powers than the articles of confederation gave the original federal American gov't.

The benefits are that the UK is just about the perfect size for joint defence and strategic endeavours, which need not be under the control of any central gov't, rather they could be the result of joint discussions between the UK nations. The same goes for diplomacy and foreign affairs.

And we are the perfect size to have free movement and completely open borders.

The UK is in the end best to see off the EU and the US but does not imply many powers at all for any central gov't.

Personally I favour regionalisation and subsidiarity but that is a different story.

BonnieDundee · 08-05-2008, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard the Lionheart

Speak for yourself mate, I'm English and proud of it!

Meh that is still an abstraction. I'm Lochaberian and North Cornish because I grew up in these places, knew the people, have roots there and knew the country well. Patriotic feeling should always be strongest for those regional areas where you actually live, settled and grew up.

Richard the Lionheart · 08-05-2008, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

Meh that is still an abstraction. I'm Lochaberian and North Cornish because I grew up in these places, knew the people, have roots there and knew the country well. Patriotic feeling should always be strongest for those regional areas where you actually live, settled and grew up.

In that case, I'm a Londoner, English, and proud of it!

cassie · 08-05-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

Meh that is still an abstraction. I'm Lochaberian and North Cornish because I grew up in these places, knew the people, have roots there and knew the country well. Patriotic feeling should always be strongest for those regional areas where you actually live, settled and grew up.

In this case, you are a crazy, mixed up, muddle headed boy unable to distinguish between nature and nurture! On second thoughts, perhaps you're really a girl?

---------------------------------

07-05-2008, 10:39 AM	#1 (permalink)
Richard the Lionheart Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 497 Party: Free England Party	The Benefits of the Union I have asked this in other places, and have yet to receive a proper reply. Now, as this a very pro-unionist forum, I'm sure there are a lot of people here that can put forward a lot of information that shows the union to be beneficial to all its member nations. Tony Blair once said that Scotland received a £10 bilion "union dividend". Does anyone know what Englands is? Please, if you are going to post a reply, could you support the statement you make? __________________ The Free England Party - England's Premier Nationalist Party www.freeengland.com .....Serious about England

07-05-2008, 09:33 PM	#3 (permalink)
Richard the Lionheart Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 497 Party: Free England Party	The silence on this thread is deafening! __________________ The Free England Party - England's Premier Nationalist Party www.freeengland.com .....Serious about England

07-05-2008, 10:13 PM	#5 (permalink)
blank_frackis Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 306 $blank_frackis is just starting out$	We don't need cost/benefit analsyes in this context. We don't pick and choose the constituent parts of our country on the basis of economic contribution, Britain exists because we're all British.
$blank_frackis is offline$

08-05-2008, 12:08 AM	#7 (permalink)
BonnieDundee Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Between Mallaig and Cornwall. Posts: 1,864	It must be noted that the union does not imply any real powers for the central gov't. I support a ceremonial head of state for the union with weaker powers than the articles of confederation gave the original federal American gov't. The benefits are that the UK is just about the perfect size for joint defence and strategic endeavours, which need not be under the control of any central gov't, rather they could be the result of joint discussions between the UK nations. The same goes for diplomacy and foreign affairs. And we are the perfect size to have free movement and completely open borders. The UK is in the end best to see off the EU and the US but does not imply many powers at all for any central gov't. Personally I favour regionalisation and subsidiarity but that is a different story. __________________ "It is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday facilitate a police state." -Bruce Schneier How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your TV; build your own cabin and pss off front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.* Edward Abbey Leopold Kohr.

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07-05-2008, 05:46 PM	#2 (permalink)
Northumbrian Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, England Posts: 787	The only defence of the Union I've heard on this forum is that it keeps our seat at the UN next to the Americans. Don't know about you, but I'm convinced!

07-05-2008, 09:44 PM	#4 (permalink)
Unionist Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 991	I am not one to say that the Union should be defended at all costs but I do believe when we consider the Union from the point of view of the alternatives - or the 'opportunity cost' - it will be seen to be the better option. I am not a British nationalist but I am very definitely opposed to English nationalism, thus I am by default a Unionist. Here are a few points I would add for consideration: Demography A large proportion of the population in England and Wales is descended from the Scots and Irish. Indeed, Scotland's population has been held down in the past by migration to England. In 1901, England's population was 30.5 million compared to 50.8 million in 2006. Scotland's population in the same period has increased from 4.5 million to just 5.1 million - hardly a comparable increase. Part of the explanation is that many Scots have moved South. North Sea Oil and Gas It is difficult to say exactly what proportion of North Sea Oil should be allocated to Scotland in terms of GDP, but 60% of the total would be a modest estimate. (Statisticians commonly cite 75% and 90% for indicative figures but normally North Sea oil and gas is subsumed under UK GDP in general.) Oil and gas accounted for over £22 billion 'value added' to the UK economy in 2006, so even a modest estimate of Scotland's 'contribution' in this sector would be put at over £13 billion. Parliamentary Arithmetic The so-called West Lothian Question points out the anomaly that Scottish MPs can vote on England-only matters while English MPs have no reciprocal votes on Scottish matters since these are reserved for the Scottish Parliament. In fact, the advantage is squarely in England's favour. Looked at from another point of view, Scottish MPs have 9% of the voting rights on English domestic issues such as health, education and transport. By contrast, English MPs have 82% of the votes on the UK matters, including Scotland, such as social security, macroeconomic policy, immigration, defence and foreign affairs. In fact, the UK parliament is largely and English parliament and it determines the budget for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. If you want to complain about the Barnet formula, note that it is English-dominated governments that have created and maintained it in place. Speaking purely selfishly from an English point of view, the minor allocation of votes to Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs in the Commons barely affects England's ability to dominate the Union. The temporary preponderance of Scots in the upper echelons of the Labour party reflects the fact that the Labour party was nearly decimated in much of England in the 1980s, but Scotland provided a continuing base of support throughout that time. (By the way, the worst possible situation - worse than an independent England - would be a federal UK in which the other parts of the UK would demand, as with other federal systems, an equal say in issues such as defence and macroeconomic policy.) Defence and Strategic Issues The Union is good for us in strategic terms and extends our home defences massively. What might happen in defence terms if Scotland left the Union is purely speculation but it would require a significant rethink of our defences. The strategic interest, incidentally, was the main incentive for us to form the Union three hundred years ago. History For generations now, the Scots, Welsh and English have lived together and fought together. We share a common language and have many aspects of our culture in common. The idea that we might have a border between our countries is unthinkable. Historically the Scots, Welsh and Irish have made huge contributions in the military, in governance of the Empire and in the sciences and arts. The Scottish Enlightenment has helped to shape the modern era. Andy Stewart OK, I won't push this one...