Reply With QuoteSays the man who voted YES to Maastricht.
You can't believe a word he says.
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Continental misunderstandings
Published by John Redwood at 6:59 am under Blog [31.07.2008]
On Tuesday I was sounded out by a senior representative of a continental government over the position the UK will adopt towards EU issues, in the event of a Conservative majority in Parliament after the next election. Given the large number of misunderstandings or wishful thinking on the part of several continental governments, I thought it a good idea to set out in a more public forum the position, to try to clear up some of the misunderstandings.I list beneath nine misunderstandings put to me during the course of the meeting.
1. “Presumably David Cameron will not fulfil his promise to withdraw Conservative MEPs from the European People’s party grouping, as that would entail loss of influence etc”
On the contrary, David is determined that all official Conservative candidates in the next European election will stand on a ticket which precludes membership of any federalist grouping including the EPP. The only reason existing MEPs have not withdrawn is they promised to belong to the EPP before the last election. He will keep his word to the party, and our candidates will keep their word to the electorate if elected.
2. “We assume the Conservatives will go along with the European project and with the Lisbon settlement – the UK has always in the past joined in, albeit reluctantly and late.”
It would be unwise to make such an assumption this time. When Margaret Thatcher came to power she did want to complete the Single market, and when Tony Blair came to power he did want to give the EU more powers over social and employment policy. The modern Conservatives have no wish to grant any more power to the EU. Moreover, we have voted against Nice, Amsterdam and Lisbon because we disagree fundamentally with them, and expect powers back. As William Hague has said, we cannot leave matters as they are if Lisbon has been ratified by all countries.
3. “What can the UK do if Lisbon has not been ratified by all countries?”
An incoming government can keep its pledge to give the people a referendum. If they vote No to Lisbon the government will repeal the legislation and the Treaty is dead.
4. “ Isn’t the UK business community strongly pro the EU, so doesn’t that mean any new government will in practise have to go along with EU plans?”
That is a typical continental misunderstanding of elite versus popular opinion and the relative importance of the two. It is probably the case that senior corporate managers of EU multinationals like Unilever are well disposed to EU integration. If you poll UK managers and executives as a whole they are likely to be as Eurosceptic as the rest of the population. Entrepreneurs are likely to be against higher taxes and more bureaucracy, whether it comes from London or from Brussels.
5. “Surely the UK government will just accept what has gone before as it will want to have influence over the EU”
We will be happy to reach common agreement with other countries on matters of common concern if that is possible, but we have no wish to use the system to force other countries to do things they do not want to do, any more than we want to be told what to do by a majority vote we have lost. We are seeking to run the government of the UK better – we do not harbour ambitions to try to run Germany or France by proxy through the EU.
6. “Isn’t the UK worried that it might lose jobs and investment if it does not go along with the majority”
No. We believe companies in neighbouring countries will continue to invest and trade in the UK all the time it makes business sense to do so. The WTO trade rules also prevent retaliatory action, were any member state thinking of such a course. We do not believe our neighbours would wish to behave like that, especially as they sell us so much more than we sell them.
7. “Won’t the UK join the Euro in due course, once a few more years have passed showing it is a success?”
No, we have won the battle to save the pound. If Blair could not persuade the British people to vote for it during his period of popularity, it is not going to happen. An incoming Conservative government will be against joining the Euro in principle, so it would be foolish of the EU to raise it during any Conservative government’s period in office.
8. “ The UK should understand that Lisbon marks the end of changing the institutional arrangements”
We don’t believe that. Every enlargement to date has been accompanied by the transfer of further powers to the EU. The EU is already working on ways of strengthening the Common foreign and security policy and common defence. David Cameron has ruled out contributing to a common European army.
9. “The UK has to show some flexibility to be a good European. After all France has to show flexibility on defence in return for the Common Agricultural policy. Germany allowed a wider range of countries into the Euro than might have been sensible to show willing over European political union”
The continent has to understand that the UK electorate does not want to be part of a political union. We want CAP reform, as it means dear food whilst penalising developing countries.
10 When I asked “Now the EU has extra powers, what is it going to do with them?” Will it do anything that we might like – cutting regulation and lowering taxes for example – there was no real reply
It seemed to come as a surprise to people who do see the whole thing in terms of constantly changing the architecture to give the EU more power, without communicating the purpose or vision behind taking those powers. It seems to be a case of “We need these powers because we need them because we need them”.
John Redwood MP Continental misunderstandings
According to JR - this is currently the Tories position. Isn't it the best hope for all Eurosceptics at this late hour?
These are the times that try men's souls: The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Thomas Paine, The Crisis
Says the man who voted YES to Maastricht.
You can't believe a word he says.
At the present time - things are pretty dire. If the LT is ratified - it becomes more difficult to persuade the electorate that its measures should be reversed with the passing of time - they become accustomed to them.Originally Posted by mkpdavies
Give me your best estimate as to when a eurosceptic party could be in a position to change our relationship with the EU - with a few benchmarks.
These are the times that try men's souls: The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Thomas Paine, The Crisis
I think the EU will collapse within years, so anti-EU partys won't get us out.
Problem is, is the solution that will be given to us after this collapse.
One world government is the one that will be pushed heavily.
More fake Euroscepticism from the Tories.
I believe in faries at the bottom of the garden,
The Loch Ness Monster,
The Aliens who crashed at Roswell, New Mexico USA in 1947,
12 foot tall shape shifting lizards,
Herman Goering lived out his retirement in Surrey,
The Bilderburg Group control the world,
But I don't believe a word of Tory "Euroscepticism".
"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."~ Ayn Rand.
If that is the case the best course must be to plump for the best on offer - in case the EU does not collapse - there are some powerful Europeans determined that it should not - with the cash to back it up.
Surely a world government is more likely whilst the EU is in place - a small number of continental superstates are more likely to agree than numerous individual states.
These are the times that try men's souls: The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Thomas Paine, The Crisis
It is safe living in fantasy land decrying everything that does not fit with your personal model - but we live in the real world. The same question for you as for MKPD.
At the present time - things are pretty dire. If the LT is ratified - it becomes more difficult to persuade the electorate that its measures should be reversed with the passing of time - they become accustomed to them.
Give me your best estimate as to when a eurosceptic party could be in a position to change our relationship with the EU - with a few benchmarks.
These are the times that try men's souls: The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Thomas Paine, The Crisis
I think things are changing. A lot of people are getting ****** off with what is going on.
I think they'll fall for the Tories one last time. Then when they do an Obama and fail to deliver, all bets are off.
I am really arguing - at the present time, every eurosceptic should vote for the Tories at the GE - they can do what they like at the EU elections as they don't matter [actually I think Libertas offers the best hope if all goes wrong and we are stuck in].
These are the times that try men's souls: The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Thomas Paine, The Crisis
I think that's a feeble minded cop out, that most of the people in this country will fall for, but I would be surprised at many people who are paying attention (IE who come here) will.
Voting for the blue wing of the EU alliance, who will become the pro one world alliance, is a total waste of time.
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