g hall

Are you on drugs the EU is the one of the worst futures for the UK

BTW Quango not Qwango

__________________
"That government is best which governs least."
"This is a sharp Medicine, but it is a Physician for all diseases and miseries".
"To be "matter of fact" about the world is to blunder into fantasy --and dull fantasy at that, as the real world is strange and wonderful."

davidnoakes

Unionist:

I know what trade is. Do you?
Do you really fail to understand that £34 billion is the amount we lose annually trading with the EU? Did you never know that before we went in we had an even balance of payments trading with the EU?

Do you not realise if we had not gone in to the EU, we would not have been forced to trade on so disadvantageous terms, as the EU forces our industry to close, or to obey its crushing 120,000 regulations?

Do you not realise there are 200 other free nations to trade with?

Do you not know the EU plans for Britain to be a tourist economy, which is why they have instructed their puppet government at Westminster to close our manufacturing over the last 35 years?

Truly your economics is very limited and I don't think anyone would want to support your very narrow and incomplete views. I begin to see what your agenda is.

__________________
David Noakes.
http://eutruth.org.uk

07974 437 097
drjnoakesdel@yahoo.co.uk
(delete the letters del - I\'m trying to stop spam.)

Unionist

You appear to have discovered a hitherto unknown meaning of the word 'trade' in which we give money away for nothing in return.

My apologies, for I always thought that trade involved an exchange.

I suggest that you write immediately to the principals of every business school and economics department in the country in order to correct them on their gross error.

davidnoakes

Bear, only an EU disinformation asset, and there have been five of you on this site all the time I've been on it, would make the following statement:

Bear "The qwango costs are British Government qwango costs, NOT EU qwango costs. The claim that the blossoming of quangos is down to the EU is simply incorrect."

Firstly, Westminster has been an EU puppet government since 1970. When Thatcher realised the EU was a dictatorship and tried to act independently, she was expelled as Prime Minister by other Bilderbergers in her cabinet in two months flat, and replaced by a compliant Bilderberger, John Major.

The 8,500 quangos costing £167 billion (cost in 1997 £negligible) is almost entirely down to the EU.

These quangos exist to employ over 100,000 influential people on salaries of £100,000 - £300,000pa to bribe them to smoth the way for the EU. Their other primary function is to enforce the EU's 120,000 regulations which cost our industry £100 billion pa.

The majority of these quangos are run by either by the EU's Common Purpose local control organisation, or by the Freemasons, who get there orders from the Bilderbergers.

The EU costs us £267 billion on a national GDP of £1,330 billion; more than a third of our economy. and that's without counting any of the figurres (like our EU contribution, £11 billion) that the Press is allowed to report on.

__________________
David Noakes.
http://eutruth.org.uk

07974 437 097
drjnoakesdel@yahoo.co.uk
(delete the letters del - I\'m trying to stop spam.)

The Bear

The 34 billion deficit that we have in our balance of trade with the EU is caused pure and simply by our not having the right goods at the right price to go into the market.

Most of which provide for homologation of international standards with the ROW as well as providing EU wide standards to support the UE wide market.

Have you any idea what it’s like trying to sell into the North American Aerospace or Electronics market for example? Talk to them about British Standards and all they show any interest in is the BS5700 series, and even then only to confirm that what you’re flogging is in line with UL standards.

Talk about DIN and it’s a different matter altogether. The homologation has been done.

It’s the same with a whole mess of other goods and services and with most countries of the world. It’s not an EU issue, it’s the cost of trading in a global market.

As regards EU legislation that is H & S related, why should people be made to work until they drop, especially when in so doing they are creating an uneven playing field within a supposedly common market.

Similarly why should Britain have for so long have gone without a minimum wage, a means that governments had been using for back door subsidisation of businesses, again wrong footing other EU states who did play fair.

And do YOU not realise that we're so far in debt that our credit is well past our limit. If we had a national Mastercard we would be getting asked for its return. Right now it's only our relationship with the EU that's keeping us afloat.

And what is it that we can sell to tthese 200 other nations that they can’t buy a whole lot cheaper elsewhere in the world? And how manyof them could not, not would not, COULD not buy from us because of existing credit deals that dictate who you can buy what from?

Maybe you should venture a little way into the world of Real Politik.

It’s not Westminster that’s crushed the Manufacturing sector though goodness knows they’ve dropped some clangers because of incompetence rather than intent, it’s changes in the global distribution of industry based on supply and demand, and above all costs.

The EU is NOT the Devil and all his works.

Far from it.

It has a way to go, some structures need to be completed, some changes need to be made, but it is well on track to becoming the United States of Europe and the sooner the better.

Better especially for us so long as we don’t get kept out by foolish British politicians, or by other EU states whose governments already see us as potentially much more of an incumbrance than a benefit.

And personally I think that those EU state governments are right.

I’m sorry that this is not what people on this forum more than any other want to read. It’s not what I like to write, but in my opinion as well as the opinion of a substantial number of other people it is exactly where Britain really stands.

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I am an old man. I have eaten much salt.

The Bear

That’s a load of rubbish. Carefully orchestrated presentation of the Community Charge by Labour as being a poll tax, which it was not, hit Thatcher below the water line. She had to go.

No, these quangos exist in many cases to do what the government do not want to leave their fingerprints on.

Oh for goodness sake get real. That’s just conspiracy hogwash. It may well be there’s some very powerful movers and shakers in and even running some of the quango’s but that isn’t the same as saying they are deliberate extensions of the power of these people.

That’s twisting highly suspect data to suit your own needs.

If we as a country had decided even up to 15 years ago to step away from the EU then it is possible that with considerable pain we might have succeeded though Britain would now be a very different nation than it is today.

We did not.

The name of the game now must surely not to sit and sulk or chase pipe dreams but get the best from where we are, and that is absolutely NOT by getting out from the EU.

__________________
I am an old man. I have eaten much salt.

blank_frackis

David, with the greatest respect, your argument in this context seems to be that the EU controls absolutely everything, so you can therefore attribute all regulatory and bureaucratic costs - even from domestic pieces of legislation that have no formal/informal link to the EU at all - to EU membership. It's not surprising that most people don't find this very convincing. The fact that you're basing all of this almost entirely on your own suppositions just makes it a borderline conspiracy theory.

Please, if you want to make arguments against EU membership you must keep it within the realms of reality. By all means argue that EU regulation does us more harm than good, but don't extend that into quoting nonsensical figures such as "the EU costs us £167 billion a year". By all means argue that we've transferred too many powers to the EU level, but don't argue that "the EU controls absolutely everything, including the nuclear weapons of (former) states Britain and France". Making these arguments can only alienate people, it does you no good whatsoever.

Aardvark

IMHO davidnoakes is an EU disinformation asset who peddles the most absurd economic tosh and launches attacks on Freemasons, Bilderbergers and Common Purpose as if they're a combined conspiracy ranged against the rest of the world. He attacks the quangos that serve the government, without defining any particular one and saying clearly what it is doing wrong. He purports to be a 'Eurosceptic', but makes the whole Eurosceptic movement appear economically illiterate. He is supported on this forum by other agents of the EU who attack anybody who contradicts them with absurd allegations of treason, traitorousness, disinformation peddling etc, when it is really they who seek to undermine the Eurosceptic cause.

davidnoakes accused me of misprision of treason, a crime abolished in 1967 before we even joined the EU. Other disinformation specialists have persuaded genuine people to make complete pr@ts of themselves laying treason charges against Heath's government in police stations all over the country, when they know that there is a 3 year time limit on treason. Everybody should know that it is up to the Attorney General to bring treason charges and not desk sergeants at the local nick, but the disinformation specialists work hard with lectures and videos to persuade the inexperienced to waste time and look stupid. The disinformation specialists have selected a few documents sealed under 30 year rules that made them 'secret' as they affected the policy decisions of outgoing governments and not because there is anything sinister about them. By concocting stories that these out of date briefing papers, viewed by a handful of civil servants and ministers in one or 2 departments, are currently applied in all government offices they have persuaded the less experienced that treason and sedition are the order of the day. davidnoakes and other disinformation specialists have produced newspapers that push massive amounts of incorrect information, supposition, hearsay, rumour, speculation and downright untruths to confuse the genuine Eurosceptics and make them look silly when they quote as 'fact' the ridiculous arguments that davidnoakes has been peddling here and which have been so intelligently dissembled.

No doubt, again, davidnoakes and others will attack me as a disinformation specialist, Illuminati, green lizard, one of Satan's little pixies from Northampton etc, but in reality it is they with their inaccurate information and unresearched allegations that are the 'enemy', IMHO, of the anti-EU movement.

I want to persuade Bear that he is wrong, but I want to do it with reasoned arguments about loss of democratic control, inequality of voting rights (Luxembourg has 6 MEPs for a population the size of Swindon etc), lack of financial probity and waste in and by EU institutions. I don't want to attack large sectors of the electorate (all quango members and all civil servants and all CP 'graduates' have a vote) by functionally and economically illiterate attacks on them. Persuasion is about presenting properly researched facts, not about confusing the electorate with drivel.

I am now reverting to my natural colour, regrowing my tail and returning to my own MMGW free planet where the Illuminati lizards dwell in peace and bureaucracy forever and ever, so mote it be.

__________________
When in Woking do as the Wokes do.

"I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

Ea of Dune

Well that made me chuckle anyway

The problem with the Common Purpose issue who ARE a Quango is that too many paranoid people jumped on the bandwagon and ruined any argument that was legit about their sucking up of Tax payers money. Thankfully the more mainstream media outfits such as the Yorkshire post are highlighting this issue in a less hysterical manner.

Of course CP are not the only one of a large bunch of parasites, the Regional Assemblies and the RDA's are up there

Ea of dune

youcanhandlethetruth

For someone that is moderator and is supposedly anti EU, you've got some nerve Aardvark....

You say "He attacks the quangos that serve the government, without defining any particular one and saying clearly what it is doing wrong. "

Let's re-examine what he said again....

"The 8,500 quangos costing £167 billion (cost in 1997 £negligible) is almost entirely down to the EU.

These quangos exist to employ over 100,000 influential people on salaries of £100,000 - £300,000pa to bribe them to smoth the way for the EU. Their other primary function is to enforce the EU's 120,000 regulations which cost our industry £100 billion pa.

The majority of these quangos are run by either by the EU's Common Purpose local control organisation, or by the Freemasons, who get there orders from the Bilderbergers.

The EU costs us £267 billion on a national GDP of £1,330 billion; more than a third of our economy. and that's without counting any of the figurres (like our EU contribution, £11 billion) that the Press is allowed to report on."

Your statement "He attacks the quangos that serve the government, without defining any particular one and saying clearly what it is doing wrong." is obviously totally untrue.

He clearly said "these quangos are run by either by the EU's Common Purpose local control organisation or by the Freemasons, who get there orders from the Bilderbergers."

If you're going to take issue with what he said then fair enough, but don't blatantly say that he didn't say what he was referring to and what it was for.

It was entirely clear what he said........

You used the term "disinformation specialist" several times in that last post, but what evidence did you present to refute his arguments ?

Maybe YOU are the disinformation specialist
Certainly DN is not - he is merely sticking up for British independence.

As a UKIP member, why are you sticking up for the EU Aardvark ?
Should we be in the EU or not ? And why not ?

As I've stated before, you sound a lot more pro-EU than anti-EU.

Regarding your previous post on this thread, you seem to be saying there would be a lot of supposed hassle from re-changing the parliament into not relying on EU subsidies, creating white papers, new laws and measures to protect Britain.

What are you saying ? That's it's not worth it or that you need more time ?
Anyone who was serious about EU independence would have a plan and be chomping at the bit to get it implemented.

But apparently you aren't ?

As on many other occassions on this forum your apathy and disillusionment with EU withdrawal is shameful for a UKIP member in my opinion.

No wonder DN describes UKIP as a "honey trap for activists" - it's rapidly turning into UKEUP by the sound of it....

If you haven't got the will or the ideas to push for EU independence then do the decent thing and stand down from the party right now.

You're showing yourself to be totally gutless and coming across as totally pro-EU in my opinion....

Shame.

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Before tyranny and television, "conspiracy theorists" never existed.

cointelpro/halfwits: Akria,Clippo,Besoeker,Bear,Eurosceptic Antlantacist,MikeUK