Millennium3

Thanks C - just to recap for this simple soul.

As you know my major concern is whether the UK could withdraw from the EU now, after the LT has been ratified and after the introduction of QMV. In brief - your answer is 'YES' in all three circumstances.

You quote in Article 35 that 'That agreement shall negotiated in accordance with Article 188n of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union; it shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament'.

Is it possible that this conclusion could include impossible terms for the UK to meet?

Overall, your reply seems to be in line with the picture that Brown has given - is that a fair comment to make?

We are not trapped, we can withdraw, more or less, whenever wish as we can of sections of EU areas of control.

chikrodah

If you were subject to malicious postings, a simple email to "the good chap" that runs this forum would have sorted that out. So why didn't you send that email? Or did you, only to discover that they weren't really malicious?

So, with all due respect, why are you still posting here?


Well, other than the fact it's been the Foreign and Commonwealth Office since 1968 (what were you saying about your excellent research?), what assets are you talking about?


Sorry aarable, but I don't know you well enough to be bitter. Should I be? As for vindictive, that's a waste of time and energy.



... and that's not rubbishing their input?

Reasoned argument? When everyone who disagrees with you, twizzel or DN is a disinformation asset? Get real.

Quote:

I will never diminish people with belittling comments about conspiracy theories, lizards, people who dress in traditional Cossack dress etc.

Good for you! You carry on supporting those who believe that those things are important.

Quote:

I will never use juxtaposition techniques, taught in all the best disinformation schools, to falsely associate good people with known baddies.

So why did you just let yourself down with that quote? Is it part of your reasoned argument to close down discussion that disagrees with you by juxtaposing allegations of disinformation with disinformation about other posters?

Bring it on, pal. I'm into the anger stage of dealing with people like you, twizzel and DN. Bad move. I'm nobody's agent, nobody's consort. I am, however, determined to stop tactics like yours from distracting others from achieving the exit of the UK from the EU.

chikrodah

I hate to agree with young Gordon, but it seems clear that we still have the option to withdraw from the EU and that the treaties cease to have any effect on us 2 years after we tell them we're leaving, regardless of whether negotiations are concluded.

Of course, first of all, we need to get enough genuine eurosceptics into government to produce the "constitutional requirement" for us to withdraw.

We need to be spending our time convincing the electorate we're normal enough to vote for. We need to convince non-voters that we can do what the other parties won't do, or are scared to do. We need to shake off the eccentrics and provide a party that can be believed in by the non-voting public. Instead, we have huge swathes of the eurosceptic movement inciting hysteria and racial hatred; we have splitters (it's like the People's Front of Judea without the jokes); we have people who think a debate is repeating their own view point until others get bored and go away.

If you'd like to read Article 188n, it's here: http://www.europeanfoundation.org/do...CLE%20188N.mht

Millennium3

Until the LT ratification process started, my criticism was of the UKIP leadership mainly for not doing what was necessary to create a political party with policies and behaviour which would appeal to a broad range of voters, thereby giving the possibility of a party which could obtain representation at Westminster - as this is the only way out of the EU.

Various unchallenged sources were stating that, like quicksand, once in the EU we would be unable to escape, once the LT was ratified or QMV was in place. Clearly if this were the case, it would require a rapid and combined effort to get as much representation in the HofC in time to act. Based on what you say, this can be done in a more planned and orderly fashion.

davidnoakes

Re aarable: Again, chikrodah, you cannot leave alone a posting that makes honest points against the EU. You pretend to be anti-EU, while so obviously destroying anti-EU posts. Again, you show yourself to be a classic disinformation specialist.

Surely aarable posts here because it is a democracy forum. It is you and the EU who are working so diligently to destroy our democracy, so it is you, not aarable, that should leave a democracy forum.

aarable said the FCO had been carrying out sabotage since at least 1970. You put up a fallacious attack on the irrelevant point the FCO existed since 1968. The fact its irrelevant isn't the point - the only point of an email disinformation specialist is to attack and destroy the truth, regardless of the senselessness of your points.

Chikrodah, anyone who works for the destruction of their own nation is likely to be at the very least bitter and twisted.

Of course "how insignifican't their contribution may be" won't rubbish them - aarable's whole point was he, unlike you, wouldn't make derogatory remarks, but again, any old misconstrued argument will do for a disinformation specialist paid by the FCO, chikrodah.

Is there any point the five of you staying on the forum now your cover is blown and your traiterous and criminal FCO employers are known?

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twizzel

You still appear to be missing the point. It is illegal under our law for us to be in the EU none of the treaty's are binding upon us because they are all illegal and consitute acts of treason. I am a subject of Queen Eliazabeth the 2nd of England and not a citizen of europe I obey only those laws which that Lady swore to uphold at her coronation. As parliament have since 1971 been activelly committing treason I do not recognize any law passed by parliament since 1970. Those who are disloyal to Her Majesty are free to leave anytime they like.

twizzel

The only thing the house of commons would listen to is the rattle of the machine gun they are being shot with, by then it will be too late for them suddenly become patriots.

chikrodah

M3, I agree with you, either UKIP needs to grow into a fully-fledged mature UK-centric party (as opposed to the UK eccentrics party) or it needs to concentrate on the EP with its diminishing set of powers and let another eurosceptic party take the baton and move towards Westminster.

I know which route I'd prefer UKIP to take.

Either way, it's time to start building, one step at a time.

Winning local elections gives eurosceptics a power base. We need that. To get local votes, we need to work on local issues, with candidates committed to their area, not to the nebulous concept of 'damaging the EU and its assets'. It doesn't matter whether those eurosceptics are independents, UKIP, ED, whatever. Until the local eurosceptics have enough members to regularly win 30% of the wards in an area, their political (rather than practical) influence will be minimal. We still need them as a rallying point.

Winning national elections gives eurosceptics publicity. With publicity comes donations, media coverage (of sorts) and more members. We need concerted efforts between all eurosceptics in an area. We need coalitions formed from enlightened self-interest. There are such coalitions in national elections in other countries; when they're effective, you get like-minded MPs into parliament. To get out of the EU will take a favourable government; the days of a favourable opposition wreaking miracles appear to be long gone.

What we don't need is hysterical, emotive prophesies of doom. We don't need the sort of EU-obsessed activity that puts voters off. (In the last GE, I lost count of the number of potential voters scared off by a canvasser who had to get the "£ GOOD, EU BAD" message into every soundbite. You could see people crossing the street to avoid us once word got out.) We don't need people on either the MP or MEP lists who are 70+; the cruel but true perception of both voters and non-voters is that those candidates are not worth voting for as they're likely to die in harness. We don't need celebrities unless they've proven, mile for mile, that they can canvass as hard, work for the communities as hard as the local person they are supplanting. We don't need mavericks who feel that pursuing their pet obsession is more important than the goal of working with others to achieve the constitutional requirement of exiting the EU.

We do need local personalities who have a proven track record of working for their communities, be it as Neighbourhood Watch organisers or local councillors. Realistically a lot of eurosceptic PPCs will spend the rest of their lives being just that. Better, then, that we put forward local people with a committment to their area.

We should, above all, agree as a eurosceptic movement to put a stop to the drivel espoused by some as the only way to leave the EU, before it destroys us completely.

Millennium3

What difference does it make if we can get out [through Westminster] any time the electorate wants to through voting in people whose declared aim is to leave?

Millennium3

Yes there many ways in which UKIP can be improved, however, my suspicion has been that NF and friends either do not want or cannot provide a party which can compete with the big three. For the serious minded - this is the problem that first needs to be resolved.