chikrodah

You know, there's no point in discussing things with you DN, when everybody who agrees is wonderful and everyone who disagrees is an EU disinformation specialist in the pay of the Germans, the Illuminati, the Freemasons or whatever.

Whether you like it or not, irrespective of your contradiction of Aardvark's well-researched points (and he and everybody else is entitled to their own opinion without being labelled as enemies of "the cause"), your approach on any EU-related subject is driving away potential supporters of the eurosceptic movement.

IMHO, your language is emotive, your reasoning occasionally suspect, your research is not of academic standards. None of this would matter if you could find a way to harness your obvious passion in such a way as to benefit other parts of the eurosceptic movement. So far, again IMHO, you are in fact splintering the movement still further.

If anybody is really interested in a well-researched body of material on the Lisbon Treaty et al, go to STATEWATCH - monitoring the state and civil liberties in Europe. The Lisbon Treaty is at Statewatch News online: Statewatch Observatory on EU Constitution. No emotion, no propaganda, just well-crafted independent research. They have more information about themselves on Statewatch: About us.

Aardvark

David,

You played the German race card and I responded, or do you not read your own diatribes these days? You then ramble on about the Germans creating the EEC during the war that they ostensibly lost (have you been reading and plagiarising Christopher Story's research?). No doubt you believe that the DVD, based conveniently in Dachau, a town near Munich, are running everything. Germany lost the war, Goering committed suicide and von Ribbentrop was hanged. Hardly the actions of people in control of the destiny of others.

If we don't contest elections what do you suggest we do to demonstrate that the people support us? It is all well and good stating that we are not a democracy, but what do you consider to be democratic? Democracy is not everyone agreeing with David Noakes.

It never ceases to amaze me that people cite 'figures', presumably from opinion polls, as proof that they are right. Polls, and I cite them as well on occasion, are a guide, but few interview more than 1-2000 people. Elections, where tens of millions participate, are surely a better guide. If people aren't happy with the parties on offer then, as with UKIP, they can form new parties and convince the electorate of their bona fides. How can an opinion poll of 1000 people be more democratic than an election involving millions?

There might well be flaws in our election system. I have observed elections all over Europe and Asia and have read the election laws of many countries. I have even ran a polling station in Kosovo. There are may things we could improve, but we can only do that by winning under the present system.

It is no excuse to say that the electorate are stupid or misinformed if they vote for things that you don't want. It is up to you to inform people in a logical and carefully argued fashion that you are right and that they should support your views. You fail to do this. Your perpetual insults of those who disagree with you are unlikely to win supporters; you've even split with a lot of your friends in the West Country because you've upset them.

Some of us have been arguing that the economy is in a mess for a long time, but we have been unable to communicate the message as only a handful of people, who read the FT and Economist, amongst other international papers, seem to be paying attention. If we do put our case people attack us as doom mongers or EU disinformation specialists.

YCHTT, DN is not an expert on financial matters, but the recession is coming, probably it's here now, and if he doesn't predict it then he really isn't paying attention. The US might drop interest rates by 1% today, you don't have to be an expert to realise that that is a panic measure after the 0.25% discount rate cut over the weekend. Yesterday's stock exchange drop is clear evidence that things aren't good. Today's rises will be driven by hedge funds seeking to make short term gains. There's another US bank about to go under and Alliance and Leicester are in a dodgy position. A UK investor lost $1 million on Bear Sterns' collapse; it might be your bank.

The EU will not be forcing us into the Euro any time soon The Euro/dollar exchange rate is making it difficult for people to export to the US (as does the dollar/pound exchange rate). The Euro is strong against the pound and this is bad for the Euro zone as we are the biggest trading partner. As you know more jobs in the Eurozone rely on trade with the UK than the other way round. The real disinformation specialists are the pro EU people who argue we would lose jobs by withdrawing, when in reality we would continue to trade as the EU needs us more than we need them. The idea that Brown will join when the Euro/pound is at parity would, if we were to join, be the moment to do it as European goods would be too expensive in perpetuity whilst our exports would be cheaper for European buyers for a similarly long time. The Europeans wouldn't let that happen.

__________________
When in Woking do as the Wokes do.

"I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

davidnoakes

Many thanks again.

1. The EU has taken control of our party leaderships and senior judges. Over 20 years they have used the party list system to appoint anti-EU MPs, which is how they got 332 MPs to vote for the abolition of Britain on 21st January. They've deliberately moved paedophiles and other perverts into many senior positions, and control our Ministers with bribery and blackmail.

The EU has successfully built a puppet government inside Westminster.

Over ten years the EU has used this parliament to pass the laws of a police state in Britain, waiting to be enforced when the EU takes over on 1.1.2009.

They have taken control of the top of the legal profession in a similar way, and the EU's Common Purpose 26,000 members wield enormous power in local government and the police.

Our soldiers have already been told they will have to sign an oath to the EU or be fired.

The Exchequer's biggest expenditure is the £167 billion pa it pays to bribe the over 100,000 influential people it has appointed to direct our new 8,500 quangos with £250,000 salaries to smooth the way for the EU.

The EU will almost certainly complete its control of our police, armed forces and population by the close of 2009.

The Reform Treaty removes the last 20% of Westminster's power on 1.1.2009, when it becomes defunct.

The EU's six constitutional treaties deceptively state they "take primacy" over the British constitution. In English, that means they will abolish it.

Parliament's five year term expires on 5th May 2010. Under what constitution can new parliamentary elections be held? Not the EU's, it makes no provision for them. Not the British, it will be superceeded.

There will be no legal way to have an election.

The EU can correctly state that we had an EU election on 11.6.2009, and another for Westminster on 5.5.2010 is unconstitutional, and in any case Westminster has been defunct and powerless for 17 months, so why would anyone want to vote for it?

The appeal is to EU judges. But our Westminster puppet government is pro-EU; it won't appeal against its own masters. If it did, EU judges have to interpret the treaties in accordance with the policy of 'ever closer union" They would clearly rule NO to a Wesminster election.

The EU's case could hardly be stronger. They won't bother to spin it - they will have military control of our population.

2.) I used to live in the USA, but this is no longer my subject. My understanding was the Chapter 322 society (or Skull and bones, USA's version of the Bilderbergers, but 550 members instead of 140), mainly Republicans, and visibly led by the Bush family, will collapse the dollar. But don't quote me.

The EU will collapse Sterling next. See eutruth.org.uk/eu200bn.htm. Could be this year, though they planned it for 2009.

3.) You haven't read that link in full. The EU plans to destroy Sterling and Britain permanently. They will keep us in abject poverty outside the Euro.

4. No longer my subject. My understanding was 9/11 was organised by GHW Bush, and he had his former partner Osama bin Laden murdered on 15th July 2001 after his 2 week treatment for kidney dialysis as he left the hospital in Riyadh. But don't quote me.

I am sure our government was involved with 7/7. It is part of the EU's plan to create hatred for Muslims as Germany did for the Jews. The EU's first nuclear war will almost certainly be against the Muslim oil nations.

The EU is our bit of the New World Oder, the one world government predicted for millennia.

5.) I ran for the leadership of UKIP in 2006. came 4th and last, but they were surprised I got 11.5%. I was the only candidate with a plan to attack the EU.

I left the party in Feb 2007 because the leadership and staff are all salaried by the EU. They close down good anti EU local campaigns, ensure there are no national ones, keep members in enforced idleness, rig elections to ensure incompetents hold senior positions, and are very clearly, like the lib-lab-con, working for the EU.

And no, I don't ususally discuss the NWO stuff. I've got enough to do fighting the EU.

__________________
David Noakes.
http://eutruth.org.uk

07974 437 097
drjnoakesdel@yahoo.co.uk
(delete the letters del - I\'m trying to stop spam.)

chikrodah

Evidence, please. Not 'Alex Jones' or Conspiracy Con type websites, but well-documented, unassailable facts. Otherwise this is bordering on the libellous in places.

davidnoakes

You are the last person who has the right to demand evidence. (But its on the eutruth website).

In reply to your former post, I don't have a go at you, aardvaark etc. because you disagree with me, but because everything you post is classic disinformation.

You attempt to throw us off the scent by linking disinformation specialists to the Germans, Freemason or illuminati. When you know full well they are paid by the British Government, originally by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. See declassified document FC0 26/1215 if you really want evidence - but you don't, you couldn't be less interested; to you its just another way of discrediting the opposition and undermining the truth.

Who pays disinformation specialists now? You are still FCO but how heavily are the 8,500 quangos involved? I'd love to know.

You say aardvaark is well researched - backing up your disinfo-buddy as you are supposed to. I don't think a majority comparing aardvaarks posts and mine would agree with you - and he starts from the disadvantage that over 80%, 90% if the Parish polls are to be believed, are on our side, not yours.

You say I'm emotive, suspect etc - these are heavily over used disinformation discrediting attacks - then your next is the ridiculous "not of academic standards."

This is just a forum where we post odd bits in our spare time - none of the posts are "of academic standards", least of all yours, but any sloppy disinformation attack will do for you.

As you are well aware, it is you in the disinformation programme who have so successfully split the anti-EU movement, not me.

You think you will be part of the ruling class in the EU. The truth is there won't be a ruling class in Britain, just a brutal foreign dictatorship, poverty and oppression, as we have seen so often in history.

The only good thing the EU will do is to cruelly betray all those who have worked to bring it into being. Your future in the EU dictatorship will be worse misery than you can possibly imagine, and you will have earned every last bit of it. Well done.

__________________
David Noakes.
http://eutruth.org.uk

07974 437 097
drjnoakesdel@yahoo.co.uk
(delete the letters del - I\'m trying to stop spam.)

davidnoakes

Error
Paragraph 1 - should obviously be "appoint pro-EU MPs" - sorry!

__________________
David Noakes.
http://eutruth.org.uk

07974 437 097
drjnoakesdel@yahoo.co.uk
(delete the letters del - I\'m trying to stop spam.)

Millennium3

It is important that we know what will be the effect when the LT comes in. I, for one, would be very grateful if those who know, or think they know, would debate the points in a serious attempt at getting to the truth.

davidnoakes

The EU would not have succeeded without the massive disinformation programme begun by Ted Heath, and which now controls our media and most of this forum. It is very relevant to the issue.

I think I've said enough in my posts to give you a very clear idea of what will happen when the Lisbon Treaty comes in. If you want more, please go to the eutruth website.

__________________
David Noakes.
http://eutruth.org.uk

07974 437 097
drjnoakesdel@yahoo.co.uk
(delete the letters del - I\'m trying to stop spam.)

Aardvark

The parish polls show a substantial majority of those who voted in favour of a referendum on the treaty. I am in favour of a referendum on the treaty/constitution and indeed thought that UKIP would be campaigning on the referendum as I promised at the election count in 2005:

Tories twice as popular

David, you misinterpret what people say and put words into their mouths and thoughts into their heads. You assume that I am an EU disinformation specialist, but I'm not the one alleging that the EEC was formed by a group of people in Berlin during the war shortly before they were all killed in a tactic no doubt designed to throw us off their scent.

How can you genuinely believe that Goering and von Ribbentrop are responsible for the EEC? You say people comparing our posts will favour you; I doubt it.

You started the German thing, as you and your ilk do, by going on about German dictators controlling the EU (an emotive term if ever there was one).

Your latest diatribe (post 13) is complete unsubstantiated and unresearched garbage from end to end. You have no authority for your propositions other than one dated document that could hardly be the key to a conspiracy otherwise it wouldn't have been disclosed to you or Dave Barnby.

The EU did not appoint any MPs in our country; they were elected by the voters. You and I have had our shot at stopping them and failed. Unlucky.

I was the most successful UKIP candidate in Oxfordshire at the last GE so I will not be fighting the next one as my seat will be fought by a candidate who's vote in the neighbouring seat was in decline.

The real people who are dividing the Eurosceptic movement are those who are destroying UKIP from within in order to further their own conspiracy theories. They, like you, seek to eliminate or drive out anybody who disagrees with them. Less than a year ago UKIP Witney had 8 candidates for May this year, the conspiracy theorists have ensured that the majority of those people will not be standing.

You might believe that you're fighting the EU, but your actions are splitting the Eurosceptic movement and will do more to ensure the EU will succeed.

The majority of the general public will never buy the idea of CP being a conspiracy of monumental proportions. The majority of the electorate will not buy the idea that the EEC was founded and continued by the Nazis. The majority of the EU will not accept the idea of the Illuminati (whoever they might be) pulling the strings of the world, despite Dan Browne's book. Jews, Freemasons, lizards, Bilderbergers, aliens, Illuminati, Knights Templar (use interchangeably when writing conspiracy theories) are not the cause of the problems we face.

The people who have power are bankers, oil men, former Soviet oligarchs and ruthless businessmen and politicians around the world. They don't conspire en masse, but act in their individual interests which, because of the nature of the system, are frequently coincidental with each other's. The real business is done on the world's golf courses. There is no one big conspiracy, but a series of self-serving agreements.

To create a fairer system will require men and women of good will to pull together. That's not going to happen whilst bitter old men are substituting pseudo-political ambition for a decent sex life. Have you not noticed how many 'senior' conspiracy theorists have long since stopped sleeping with their wives (if they ever had one) and have devoted themselves 24/7 to the cause of Eurosceptic politics rather than to the chasing of nubile young ladies? They really are a bunch of w@nkers.

__________________
When in Woking do as the Wokes do.

"I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

chikrodah

I'd be delighted to debate the points, but let's have serious, well-researched evidence as a basis. DN's claim that his evidence is on his website is flawed. His opinions are on his website. There's no supporting documentation of sufficient worth to convince legal specialists, researchers or parliamentarians that it would be worth taking his claims seriously.

I've posted the links to Statewatch research several times now. All I get in response is accusations of being a nasty little disinformatzchik. DN and his associates don't want to debate this; they'd rather convince us of their point of view. If I choose to believe otherwise, they call me a traitor and a quisling; they assume (extremely erroneously as it happens) certain things about my career, my private life and my beliefs. These people don't want debate and they don't want democratic representation on this forum (for if they did, they'd allow others an opposing point of view).

I'm not interested in carrying on a discussion with DN, twizzel, aarable and several others, because they cannot cope with rational debate without resorting to pettiness and name-calling. It's a shame that they can't harness their passion towards actually working with others to achieve what they claim they want. Instead, they libel, exaggerate and intimidate others until we back off and leave them to it.

What will they do if they are proved wrong in 2010? What will they say if it turns out that we still have a parliament at Westminster, still have an oath of loyalty to the Queen and not the EU, still have local and district councillors? Will that be just another EU con trick or will they claim victory for their campaigns?