Slacker

Why do people loathe the EU so much? It's never done anything bad to this country, the fact is it's improved Britain no end;
Single market economy - Does this even need an explanation...?
No war - Perhaps the biggest thing, thanks to the EU there hasn't been a major war in Europe since WW2.
Open borders - With one passport you can travel anywhere around Europe without being stopped, so much easier when traveling.
Give's us a powerful unified voice - When the EU speaks as one at the UN it gets things done quicker than just a small island speaking out.
Funding for thousands of projects - The EU has pumped millions into projects all across Europe, which have improved people's lives no end.
European Court of Justice - Protects our rights. For instance, the recent ruling declaring that ISPs cannot track what people download.

Can anybody seriously say they would rather have a Europe without the EU and consequently, lose all of the above?

Westcountryman

Doesn't need political integration.

This isn't attributable to the EU. There's no appetite for war between European Nations. Not to mention our nuclear deterrent.

This is probably the ONE useful thing I can think of.

Britiain already has a strong presence on the international stage - a permanent seat on the UN Security council, leading member of NATO, our armed forces are one of the most powerful in the world...

Every £1 the EU spends in the UK costs the UK £2.60. We pay far more into the EU than we get back out.

It has equally made rulings that are absurd and against the UK's national interest - eg. Factortame.

The Bruges Group

__________________
Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietam - "This hand of mine, which is hostile to tyrants, seeks by the sword quiet peace under liberty."

Firefly

I do not credit the EU for no war in Europe. I credit other things such as the threat of Nuclear weapons, and the knowledge that other countries around the globe would step in and support their allies were there another world war centered on Europe.
Open borders, sure it's lovely to go on holiday with more ease. It's **** to come home and find you don't have a job because those open borders work both ways. The free movement of people within europe have strangled large parts of this country.
Since when has the UK not had a voice in world affairs? I think the UK has been one of the most respected and vocal voices world wide even before the EU.
Funding for thousands of projects. How much money have we in return pumped into the EU? How much more will we be required to give to the EU?

Slacker

I just want to say first that I'm not here to flame or troll these boards and that I'm generally interested at seeing and understanding the views of Eurosceptics, I'm not here to create any arguments .

Eurosceptic Atlanticist:
- True, can't really argue with that point. However, without being in the EU we won't have access to that free market.

- Again, I agree, but creating a deterrent against war was one of the main reasons for the creation of the coal and steel agreement which was a direct forerunner of the EU.

- I agree, and all those things are great and I hope they stay that way. But as countries like India and China develop our voice might be drowned out, the EU helps to ensure that won't happen.

- You could make a similar argument against any federalised system. Say people from Sussex pay (complete guesswork here) £4000000 in taxes every year, but the government only spends £3000000 in the county during the same year. Whereas say people from Kent pay the same in taxes but the government spends £5000000 on the county, as it's schools are lacking and it needs new hospitals. It's just the way the world works.

- Without Factortame, it wouldn't have any power which would destroy the entire point of it.


Firefly:

In response to the jobs remark; of course everything has a down side and britons losing their job to eastern europeans is obviously quite tragic but it cannot be helped. I'll again use my analogy from above, if a million people from Sussex decided they wanted to move north up to Yorkshire and were prepared to work for less then there's not much people from Yorkshire can do about it. That's the negative, there's also the positive that it fuels the economy. As with everything, there are positives and negatives it's about finding a balance between the two.

Firefly

It may surprise you but I do understand where you are coming from too. It is a little hard to see that my community is a part of a bigger better EU picture when it is suffering so badly because of this. There are victims in any society, it's easy to be sad about that and hang ones head, until it effects you on a more personal level. Then surely you realise people feel they should stand up for themselves and for what's right for them and their families and indeed their country. It perhaps cannot be helped you are right while we are still in the EU as it stands today. So I hope you can see why those like me, from communities so greatly affected, want out.
I'd just like to add, it's easy to say people with such views are fanatical and extremist but while that may be the case with some people, it is not with all. My area the East Midlands was one of the first areas to vote in a UKIP MEP. Why did we do that do you think? We are ordinary people with ordinary lives, one of the poorest areas of the UK and we are hurting.

Slacker

Of course. I completely understand why people who have lost their job because of migration are angry, and if I were in their position I'm sure I would feel the same. And I agree that the EU is partly to blame for this, however if we were to pull out from the union tomorrow I believe it will do far more harm than it will do good.
I think there needs to be a proper national debate about the EU as that's never really happened and I think that's one of the reasons why there's so much scepticism in this country. Some people believe that we should just flat out leave the EU, some believe everything the EU is doing is right; neither are correct. We as a country need to decide after which parts of the EU we want to be a part of, as I'm sure even people on these boards can see positive things Europe has done for us and on the other side I can see the negative effects the EU has had.

Firefly

Oh I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately there is little middle ground as you stated. I can tell you as I have mentioned elsewhere here that speaking to my Mother in law and others of her age, when the EU came about, they thought sure yes let's have free trade in Europe. How can that be a bad thing? Things have gone much farther then they could have ever imagined back then. Yes the people need to have a say, not just politicians debating it. Which is why I fully support a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. If we can get that, it is something at least. We are not the only people who would like one, we are one of the few trying to demand one. Surveys across Europe have shown that people in many countries would like to have had a referendum.
source Voters in five EU countries want treaty referendum - poll - Forbes.com
There are other studies for the other EU nations involved, I can't find the links just now, but the message is quite clear. Many polls also show many also want an in out referendum. Most feel the EU should be given less power then it has currently. Wish I could find the links, if anyone has any please feel free to post them.
So we are one of the few more vocal countries. And as we are a democracy, how can that be considered a BAD thing?
It is well and good to say, we'll continue on and sort things out as we go, sometime in the future. Maybe we can make the EU a better place for us. But if we can't then what?
P.S. Wish some of the rest of you would get involved in this conversation. I am not the most knowledgeable person here on politics, far from it!

Robin

What war has the EU prevented and who would have been the belligerents?.

BenjC

The war in Kosovo of course!

....... er yeah.

Roland

Slacker please wake up.

The bottom line is with out going into specific details which i'm more than willing to do if you so wish is the EU will be an end to democratic government.

How would you feel about the idea of living in a system of government where you have no say in who makes the laws of this country?

A system where by a commission 12 unelected, unaccountable, unanswerable, people will make laws and decide legislation in secret behind closed doors.

Let's meet the commission.


Do you want these people to run your life?