The EU

Harrism · 19-10-2005, 10:32 AM

If people don't want to be in the EU.

If you don't want to be in the EU.

And I'm sure ukip has the majority seats for the EU.

Then why not pull from it? Take the publics decision to heart, but I warn you; you had better have some bloody good straight honest down to earth reasons before you do. When your heart knows something you can go for it, because you know YOUR right.

People then remember the reasons, and they'll remember you being so bold. They also remember you being right, but remember it's not them who will judge but history.

Alex McKee · 19-10-2005, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrism

If people don't want to be in the EU.

If you don't want to be in the EU.

And I'm sure ukip has the majority seats for the EU.

Then why not pull from it? Take the publics decision to heart, but I warn you; you had better have some bloody good straight honest down to earth reasons before you do. When your heart knows something you can go for it, because you know YOUR right.

People then remember the reasons, and they'll remember you being so bold. They also remember you being right, but remember it's not them who will judge but history.

Erm, what do you mean by this? We have 10 (soon to be Eleven again) seats in the EU Parliament but not the majority in that house!

As for pulling from it, only a Westminster Government (UK) may take that decision.

19-10-2005, 11:07 AM

Harrism has a very good point and was not being naive, IMO. It is a principle of Neuro-Linguistic Programming that if your message is not being understood, don't just blame the hearer, check your message and work out if you can find a clearer way to communicate it. Blaming others just makes you powerless. Checking oneself, empowers one, because one can only change oneself.

George Lakoff, a Professor of Linguistics at the Uni of Berkeley, USA is an expert on how people can mess up their communication without realising. We don't just think in words and ideas, but categories, and what he calls 'frames'.

An example on how to shoot oneself in the foot.

Use the language and frame of your opponent.

Why do some anti-EU people still refer to their opponents as pro-Europeans?
Because they don't know about frames.

Here's an example from the book, and it is about the Republicans and Democrats.

The Republicans have values that mean they want small government, and see the ideal situation as low taxes to enable prosperity.

The Republicans refer to their value about tax as being in favour of 'tax relief'. Do you see how 'tax relief' is consistent with the Republican view that low taxes are best for everybody? It is framed in a positive way to the public.

Along come the Democrats who believe in higher taxes than the Republicans because they want to help the poor. They could frame their value as 'tax contribution' to appeal to a sense of charity, or 'tax investment' as a wise choice.

What have they been doing?

They have been arguing against the Republican view of taxes using their language! They shoot themselves in the foot! How?

Democrat: We're opposed to tax relief because we believe it to be unfair to the disadvantaged in our society. Tax relief provides a widening of the divide between rich and poor. etc etc

The public hear 2 things.

1. The rational argument.
2. A very powerful subconscious response, 'he's against relief! he wants to burden and oppress us, he's a bad guy!'

What about here?

TV prog, Pro-EU guy is introduced as a pro-European, and anti-EU guy is introduced as a Euroskeptic.

If you do not challenge the lie that the pro-EU guy is pro-European, then no matter what you say, you are arguing against a guy who likes Europeans, and you must be therefore, someone who doesn't like them, or trust them!

This is why the BBC programme 'How Euro are you?' had no category for a person who loves Europe and sees the EU as something damaging to Europe!

I recommend the book: 'Do not think of an elephant' by George Lakoff, subtitled 'Know your values and frame the debate.' It is full of info about how we can mess things up and what to do about it. It is only £5.

We are losing the language war and just telling the truth will not overcome it. Lakoff explains why, and it is cognitive science based.

Christina

Harrism · 19-10-2005, 11:13 AM

I thought it was ukip.

I told you I wasn't a politian, Well campain like your doing but solely at Westminster. What I'm saying is if you ignore the people they will look at you for an example and if you can give them reasons when they ask, those reasons will stay in their hearts.

Have your heads firm, you don't need to know what others think because you already know. Doesn't matter whether you asked them or not, the EU Lied to us. Lets fix this mess.

You guide the current by not attempting to control the waves.

Harrism · 19-10-2005, 11:20 AM

Quote:

We are losing the language war and just telling the truth will not overcome it. Lakoff explains why, and it is cognitive science based.

You should really watch the thundercats

No, honesty down to earth comments, and virtue are all you need.

Tell me if Im wrong.

We lost the language war because of america. I'll stand firm by this. English isn't quite english anymore.

19-10-2005, 11:22 AM

You are wrong because Science has proven it.

Harrism · 19-10-2005, 11:24 AM

You might want to explain it because I don't see how.

How can science explain it?

19-10-2005, 11:28 AM

By experiment. Buy the book to understand what I'm getting at, I can't post too much or I'll breach copyright.

Harrism · 19-10-2005, 11:29 AM

By experient yes I can see what you mean that's like trying and testing with history, but history is the better judge.

I'm not all too keen on copyright laws, if you want to use something for a constructive reason then why not; everyone's only on this planet to learn.

Harrism · 19-10-2005, 11:41 AM

I was just reading this page.

http://www.ukip.org/index.php?menu=f...ivefreedomstop

Wouldn't this sound better?

Freedom from the EU
Freedom from cruelity (crime is a form of cruelity)
Freedom from Immigrants, lets sort out this overcrowding.
Freedom from slavery (being forced to slave away until 70)
And true Freedom of speech.

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19-10-2005, 10:32 AM	#11 (permalink)
Harrism Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 113	If people don't want to be in the EU. If you don't want to be in the EU. And I'm sure ukip has the majority seats for the EU. Then why not pull from it? Take the publics decision to heart, but I warn you; you had better have some bloody good straight honest down to earth reasons before you do. When your heart knows something you can go for it, because you know YOUR right. People then remember the reasons, and they'll remember you being so bold. They also remember you being right, but remember it's not them who will judge but history.

19-10-2005, 11:07 AM	#13 (permalink)
Guest Posts: n/a	Harrism has a very good point and was not being naive, IMO. It is a principle of Neuro-Linguistic Programming that if your message is not being understood, don't just blame the hearer, check your message and work out if you can find a clearer way to communicate it. Blaming others just makes you powerless. Checking oneself, empowers one, because one can only change oneself. George Lakoff, a Professor of Linguistics at the Uni of Berkeley, USA is an expert on how people can mess up their communication without realising. We don't just think in words and ideas, but categories, and what he calls 'frames'. An example on how to shoot oneself in the foot. Use the language and frame of your opponent. Why do some anti-EU people still refer to their opponents as pro-Europeans? Because they don't know about frames. Here's an example from the book, and it is about the Republicans and Democrats. The Republicans have values that mean they want small government, and see the ideal situation as low taxes to enable prosperity. The Republicans refer to their value about tax as being in favour of 'tax relief'. Do you see how 'tax relief' is consistent with the Republican view that low taxes are best for everybody? It is framed in a positive way to the public. Along come the Democrats who believe in higher taxes than the Republicans because they want to help the poor. They could frame their value as 'tax contribution' to appeal to a sense of charity, or 'tax investment' as a wise choice. What have they been doing? They have been arguing against the Republican view of taxes using their language! They shoot themselves in the foot! How? Democrat: We're opposed to tax relief because we believe it to be unfair to the disadvantaged in our society. Tax relief provides a widening of the divide between rich and poor. etc etc The public hear 2 things. 1. The rational argument. 2. A very powerful subconscious response, 'he's against relief! he wants to burden and oppress us, he's a bad guy!' What about here? TV prog, Pro-EU guy is introduced as a pro-European, and anti-EU guy is introduced as a Euroskeptic. If you do not challenge the lie that the pro-EU guy is pro-European, then no matter what you say, you are arguing against a guy who likes Europeans, and you must be therefore, someone who doesn't like them, or trust them! This is why the BBC programme 'How Euro are you?' had no category for a person who loves Europe and sees the EU as something damaging to Europe! I recommend the book: 'Do not think of an elephant' by George Lakoff, subtitled 'Know your values and frame the debate.' It is full of info about how we can mess things up and what to do about it. It is only £5. We are losing the language war and just telling the truth will not overcome it. Lakoff explains why, and it is cognitive science based. Christina

19-10-2005, 11:13 AM	#14 (permalink)
Harrism Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 113	I thought it was ukip. I told you I wasn't a politian, Well campain like your doing but solely at Westminster. What I'm saying is if you ignore the people they will look at you for an example and if you can give them reasons when they ask, those reasons will stay in their hearts. Have your heads firm, you don't need to know what others think because you already know. Doesn't matter whether you asked them or not, the EU Lied to us. Lets fix this mess. You guide the current by not attempting to control the waves.

19-10-2005, 11:22 AM	#16 (permalink)
Guest Posts: n/a	You are wrong because Science has proven it.

19-10-2005, 11:24 AM	#17 (permalink)
Harrism Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 113	You might want to explain it because I don't see how. How can science explain it?

19-10-2005, 11:28 AM	#18 (permalink)
Guest Posts: n/a	By experiment. Buy the book to understand what I'm getting at, I can't post too much or I'll breach copyright.

19-10-2005, 11:29 AM	#19 (permalink)
Harrism Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 113	By experient yes I can see what you mean that's like trying and testing with history, but history is the better judge. I'm not all too keen on copyright laws, if you want to use something for a constructive reason then why not; everyone's only on this planet to learn.

19-10-2005, 11:41 AM	#20 (permalink)
Harrism Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 113	I was just reading this page. http://www.ukip.org/index.php?menu=f...ivefreedomstop Wouldn't this sound better? Freedom from the EU Freedom from cruelity (crime is a form of cruelity) Freedom from Immigrants, lets sort out this overcrowding. Freedom from slavery (being forced to slave away until 70) And true Freedom of speech.