Democratizing the European Union
About this new thread
I welcome on the whole the decision of the moderator to close the thread "Welcome, USA, to the ranks of civilized countries!" as a streamlining opportunity.
Mainly because of the attitude of one particular participant, the old thread had for much too long degenerated into a one-track catalogue of low-level, sometimes embarrassing bird-brain remarks with scant relation to a real debate.
At the same time, I should say that, in my view, closing a thread among the most popular ones in this section of the Forum because of the behaviour of one or even two or more participants reflects a serious failure in the policing approach of the moderation team.
As far as I am concerned, this new thread aims to underscore the democracy deficit in the current functioning of the EU and to offer tentative institutional solutions.
It is my hope that even among the many participants in this Forum who are of the more radical opinion that the EU should be abolished, some may still be interested in discussing in good faith the less radical possibility of improvements, if only because the EU is likely to last a few years more...
Initial views appreciated!
JR (acting coordinator, http://www.euroconstitution.org)
Last edited by Jacques Roman; 27-11-2011 at 12:28 AM.
Ok so what could we do to make Europe more democratic.
Nothing we don't even speak the same language. Can you imagine the presidential primaries like they have in america with the audience and the panel from all nations of Europe sitting opposite the presidential hopefuls with their head phones on. Then when a presidential hopeful delivers a passionate speech their would be an immediate applause and cheers from those that spoke the language followed 5 seconds later by another slightly dubbed down applause and cheers as the impact of the speech has been totally lost in translation. It would be a bigger joke than the EU parliament.
If the Euro has any chance of surviving the only way it can do so is for a centralised body to inflict it's will on the whole of Europe with out any care for the member states and the wishes of it's peoples, that is what fiscal and economic union will be, their is absolutely no way round that. Democracy and the Eurozone are a total paradox.
Last edited by Roland; 27-11-2011 at 03:02 AM.
The road to hell is paved in good intention.
EU Languages, etc.
Thanks for the effort, Roland !
Switzerland (42 000 square kilometres, fewer than 8 million people) uses at least four languages, viz. one language per 2 000 000 people on the average. One rarely hears that this is an inconvenience: on the contrary.
The EU (500 million people) uses 23 languages, or one language per 22 million people on the average (not counting non official EU languages such as Catalan or Basque). Furthermore, the Union is a confederation, not a state, meaning that the number of the languages used is much less material in its case than in the case of Switzerland (incidentally, it is quite probable that the US will soon be using two official languages).
I see no problem in this regard. On the contrary, promoting languages is an important part of promoting diversity, one of the objectives of the Union. Actually, the EU should preserve and promote all European languages, and there are ways to do it, especially by strengthening the euroregions, of which not enough use is made at present.
Centralising monetary, financial and budgetary functions is one thing, very desirable and perfectly reconcilable with democracy.
The real problem, I feel, is that the EU is both not centralized enough in certain respects, and not democratic enough in many others. JR
Using Switzerland as an example -- not even in the EU btw in case you forgotis not a good comparison as it is tiny at less than 8m people.
Firstly, the in-use language is that of each respective Canton, and mostly it is German as they have the most Cantons. If you discount Romansch, which almost no-one speaks any more, you are talking 3 languages. The Swiss tend to speak at least 2 though... French & Italian come next in terms of numbers of Cantons. But English is gaining ground in common usage all the time due to the large number of foreign companies etc.. setting up here and the ebb and flow of expatriates, many here only temporarily.
JROriginally Posted by Jacques Roman
"especially by strengthening the euroregions, of which not enough use is made at present."
There you have it in a nutshell, the reason the EU is not, and probably never could be, democratic. The people are told what they need not asked. What EU body has ever said let's ask the peoples of the EU whether they want their territories to become EU regions, or not?
It's unconscious with EU fanatics, it's as natural as breathing for them, I mean the dictatorial attitude which tells the subjects of the EU dukedom that, for instance, they need to be split into EU regions, and those regions should be made ever stronger, and therefore by contrast national boundaries made ever weaker. The logic is inescapable, make EU regions stronger: Make national boundaries weaker.
No the EU is not democratic, because it does not want the people to have any executive power. It has had to put up with some referenda due to national constitutions, but in the cases where it cannot stop referenda, it will keep holding repeat referenda until it gets the right answer. However, if the right answer is secured the first time around, there never seems to be a second referendum, in that situation.
And puleese no-one say it's representative democracy like what we got. Such an argument will be ignored with complete disdain.
__________________________________________________ _______________________
The ethnic English do exist: Here is an example;
English girl barred from Government job...because she is wrong kind of white | Mail Online
Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | Blogs | Patrick O'Flynn | When being white and English is a crime... | Exclusive opinion, news and views from Daily and Sunday Express's top writers
Environment Agency in positive discrimination row over training programme closed to white English pe
A vote for the tri-partite elected dictatorship, the LibLabCon, the self authorised troika, is a vote for the EU.
Little Englander
Not; Little Englander (sour) or LittleEnglander
I'm basically going to make the same point as Little Englander because as he has just put it "there you have it in a nut shell", you are telling people what must be important to them in order to make Europe function as a democracy. Telling people that they must behave in a certain manor and then taking they're hard earned tax to promote your ambitions can not be in any way democratic. If you we're to ask the people all around Europe where they would like they're money spent and gave them a choice between a helping abused kids or promoting second languages, I'd hazard a guess helping abused kids would win by a landslide.I see no problem in this regard. On the contrary, promoting languages is an important part of promoting diversity, one of the objectives of the Union. Actually, the EU should preserve and promote all European languages, and there are ways to do it, especially by strengthening the euroregions, of which not enough use is made at present.
Your self centred dream is literally taking resources away from the individual that earns them and then from where most would agree resources could be well spent and then placing them in projects that hardly any of us want or care for.
The road to hell is paved in good intention.
I would have repped that post, but it wouldn't let me.
__________________________________________________ _______________________
The ethnic English do exist: Here is an example;
English girl barred from Government job...because she is wrong kind of white | Mail Online
Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | Blogs | Patrick O'Flynn | When being white and English is a crime... | Exclusive opinion, news and views from Daily and Sunday Express's top writers
Environment Agency in positive discrimination row over training programme closed to white English pe
A vote for the tri-partite elected dictatorship, the LibLabCon, the self authorised troika, is a vote for the EU.
Little Englander
Not; Little Englander (sour) or LittleEnglander
What is this repped thing I don't really understand it or how you do it.
The road to hell is paved in good intention.
At the bottom of each post, on the left is a star and a triangle.
If you think a message hits on a fundamental truth, or you believe it deserves recognition for some reason, click on the star and give it a rep.
Apparently, I have already repped one of your posts lately, so the forum software won't let me do it again until I have repped some other posters. The software seems to assume the asinine position that people rep individuals rather than posts. Crazy!
__________________________________________________ _______________________
The ethnic English do exist: Here is an example;
English girl barred from Government job...because she is wrong kind of white | Mail Online
Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | Blogs | Patrick O'Flynn | When being white and English is a crime... | Exclusive opinion, news and views from Daily and Sunday Express's top writers
Environment Agency in positive discrimination row over training programme closed to white English pe
A vote for the tri-partite elected dictatorship, the LibLabCon, the self authorised troika, is a vote for the EU.
Little Englander
Not; Little Englander (sour) or LittleEnglander
European democracy/Euroregions
Let us be clear that I am expressing my views, just like Little_Englander or Roland are expressing theirs.
Consequently, I am no more "telling people what must be important to them in order to make Europe function as a democracy" than Little_Englander or Roland are telling people what must be important to them in order to dissolve the EU and return to the supposedly splendid era of competitive nationalisms. All of us here are expressing our own different opinions, obviously in the hope of convincing as many people as possible.
That much is clear, I hope.
Turning to the Euroregions :
They do exist and they have been approved in several treaties duly ratified by all member states, sometimes through referendums. However, they currently serve more as administrative, budgetary frameworks than as a real instrument of European participatory democracy.
Personally, I have long held the view that all substantial modifications to the EU treaties should be submitted to referendum in all member states. The question of reinforcing the euroregions is no exception. Furthermore, there are ways to manage the issue supposing this or that member state is opposed to the idea of real, functional euroregions: for instance, allowing each member state to declare that it should be treated for all purposes as one single euroregion (if it is what the UK or other member states wish). JR
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