Britannist

It has been announced today that Honda are now commercially producing a zero-emission, hydrogen fuel-cell powered car.

An interesting development from the point of view of those of us who want to see progress in moving towards the introduction of cars and other vehicles which do not rely on petrol (which is going to run out one day) to run and operate.

BBC 1 Ceefax (analogue page 119) stated (at 2.52 pm today) “The four-seater, called FCX Clarity, runs on hydrogen and electricity and emits water vapour.” The BBC Ceefax report also pointed out that Honda claim the vehicle offers “three times better fuel efficiency than a traditional, petrol-powered car.”

More on this at:

Honda produces first commercial hydrogen cars | Green Tech - CNET News.com

Honda makes fuel-cell car | Reuters

Honda begin production of zero-emissions car - Telegraph

Bloomberg.com: Japan

Business of Green Business Blog International Herald Tribune Blog Archive A boost for hydrogen from Honda

Baron von Lotsov

To separate hydrogen from oxygen requires more energy than the energy obtained by combining hydrogen with oxygen. I think the loss is about 25% to convert into hydrogen and on top of that you have the inefficiency of converting it back to mechanical power, which is about 50% approximately. So you will need to burn more coal, oil or gas than if you didn't use this round about way of doing things. Of course it would be emission free if you generated the electricity with windmills but then that would cost twice as much as using oil!

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We are the self-preservation society

Besoeker

Quite so.
The car might be green. Fuel production not so green.

Popeye

I thought water vapour was one of the main causes of global warming?

Ian C

All we need now is a totally renewable source of energy..
..for Fuel production.

Roland

On the other hand we do need to start finding other ways of getting around.

Inventions start less efficient when they our first brought into production then as time progresses the technology is refined and becomes cheaper.

It would appear nuclear power is in all reality the only way forward and if the government truly believe if we don't change our ways the world will end then they can use the tax on petrol to subsidize these cars or something along those lines. We all know they won't because in reality green taxes are a stealth tax and I have no doubt special interest groups and the oil cartels will do all in they're power to stop it.

Yet again why are the EU and the UN and the IPCC not promoting this and helping to get this on the road successfully.

Baron von Lotsov

I think there are fundamental limits on the efficiency. The 50% efficiency of turning hydrogen into energy was a generous estimate. It depends on the difference in temperature between the combustion and the ambient temperature. Different fuels combust at different temperatures and so you have a fundamental limit on the efficiency of all combustion engines. I can't think that there is any other way to turn hydrogen into mechanical energy and so it is useless until we get rid of the last oil and gas power station, since we would be better off using the oil directly in the cars themselves.

I have just checked and the combustion temperature for oil is about 2150C and for hydrogen it is 2800C maximum. So it will be slightly more efficient but that is not counting the inefficiency at the power station, which is on top of that.

I'd personally concentrate on generating electricity using nuclear fusion. I think in the future they will be able to build huge power stations using this, maybe over 50GW. Then it won't matter if you waste a bit because they will be virtually giving the electricity away.

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We are the self-preservation society

Gramboy2

Be sure that Gov'nt won't be thinking about the technical issues - they will be concentrating on the best way to tax the new power source.

The rationale for this will be that there are just too many cars on the road and road pricing probably catch everyone.

Wowbanger TIP

These schemes for "hydrogen economies" and "sustainable" power are manifestly not going to happen. They are not practical and there is no longer anywhere near enough time to attempt to implement them.

The simple fact is that there is no replacement for oil as a fuel. No alternative offers anything like the energy density, the chemical stability under ordinary circumstances, the ease of transportation and storage or is as easy to get hold of cheaply.

The average barrel of oil contains 6.0 Million BTU's, or the equivalent of 18,000 man hours of effort, approximately 8 years worth at 40 hours a week.

The fact is our society is only viable given the existence of cheap oil and gas, not just for transportation but for food production, the chemical industries and the logistics chains. It is probably that the British economy, and society which rests upon it, can sustain 100 dollar plus oil for about 12 months at the most in any recognizable form. Of course anything above that figure increases the strain upon the economy, exponentially increasing the chance of a catastrophic systematic collapse.

By my reckoning we have already progressed about half way to the point where the economy implodes, I believe we are already passed the point of no return. Northern Rock, 120 a liter petrol, inflation at 3.3%, wage demands of 13% this is the situation now. It will take a little time for this to feed into the economy and begin an age of mass unemployment and social fragmentation but when it does the results will be unprecedented and the 70's will appear like a golden age of prosperity by comparison. With the crucial difference that this time there is no North Sea to bale us out.

Its going to take a hell of a lot more than a car that runs on hydroygen and can refuel in one service station in the entire country to sort this one out.

Baron von Lotsov

There is not a free market in energy, it is a cartel and it fixes the price. We have seen this time and time again and not only oil but gas as well. Oil should not fluctuate like it does and these all-of-a-sudden 25% hikes in domestic bills have no relation to anything that would affect the price anything like what it does. In a free market price is determined by supply and demand. For the price to hike naturally there would be a corresponding spike in demand or a sudden reduction in supply. The truth is there is none of this. Supply is constant and so is demand but for a steady year on year increase and not a 25% increase all of a sudden. We are basically being robbed by these people and they can get away with it because high oil prices mean consumers have to cut down and hence carbon is cut as per EU diktat.

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We are the self-preservation society