A Smog Hypothesis

tito · 06-05-2008, 08:20 PM

Steering away from global warming for a second, let's hypothesise over the outcome of environmentalism during the industrial revolution.

The London smog, should it have been cleaned up by decree and legislation?

Besoeker · 07-05-2008, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tito

Steering away from global warming for a second, let's hypothesise over the outcome of environmentalism during the industrial revolution.

The London smog, should it have been cleaned up by decree and legislation?

It largely was, wasn't it?
The Clean Air Acts of 1956 and 1968?

mkpdavies · 07-05-2008, 08:46 AM

I know there is an argument that this was going to sort itself out anyway, but the fact smog was demonstrably down to pollution (real pollution, not made up pollution like co2), means I think government (backed by the will of the people) were justified in legislating.

AlanA · 07-05-2008, 12:18 PM

I rather liked those 'pea soupers'. It was all we had to eat up north !

tito · 11-05-2008, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Besoeker

It largely was, wasn't it?
The Clean Air Acts of 1956 and 1968?

Long after.

But what if action was taken quickly?

MKPD, I used to be inclined to believe you. But consider it is the same smog that is the product of the industrial revolution that has raised life expectancy from 30 years in the agrarian culture to todays incredible ages.

Nobody has the right to live in a perfect city.

Smidgey · 11-05-2008, 08:22 PM

Indeed. People often see the industrial revolution as the perfect example against rampant capitalism. I see it as one of the greatest periods of growth and advancement in human civilisation. Sure, there was smog and there were work houses (although they were a government creation), but compared to what went before, unless you were a rich person, it would have been a huge step up.

Eurosceptic Atlanticist · 11-05-2008, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tito

Long after.

But what if action was taken quickly?

MKPD, I used to be inclined to believe you. But consider it is the same smog that is the product of the industrial revolution that has raised life expectancy from 30 years in the agrarian culture to todays incredible ages.

Nobody has the right to live in a perfect city.

But people have the right to expose others to harmful chemicals, smog etc? Don't think so.

Smidgey · 11-05-2008, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eurosceptic Atlanticist

But people have the right to expose others to harmful chemicals, smog etc? Don't think so.

I think it really comes down to a property issue. You are free to work in a factory that exposes you to, for example, asbestos. The factory, however, is not allow to spray asbestos fibres all over your property (unless of course, for some rediculous reason, you want it to).

Besoeker · 12-05-2008, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tito

Long after.

Quote:

Domestic smoke was a major cause of urban smog. The London smog of 1952 lasted for several days and caused 4000 deaths prompting the implementation of the Clean Air Acts 1956 and 1968.

Maybe not as long after some of the really bad stuff..........

mkpdavies · 12-05-2008, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tito

Long after.

MKPD, I used to be inclined to believe you. But consider it is the same smog that is the product of the industrial revolution that has raised life expectancy from 30 years in the agrarian culture to todays incredible ages.

Nobody has the right to live in a perfect city.

That's a bit of a Robin Hood argument though. You could argue that robbing some rich fat ******* and giving his money to 30 families has a net benefit. It is still morally wrong though and will lead us all to hell. What is perfect anyway? I don't expect perfection, but I do expect the right to breath without choking. Actual, proveable physical harm has to be dealt with by the rule of law.

If you can prove something has a bad effect on other people, then I think it is right that you try and prevent that bad effect. I don't think the industrial revolution was that badly disrupted, as the measures were not overly extreme.

Not like what envirofascists are trying to force through today, off of the back of something that isn't even pollution anyway. I have said from the beginning though. If it is proven that

a) Man is changing the climate.
b) It is co2 that is doing it.
c) This change is bad rather than good or even
d) It is net negative and
e) We really can do something about it.

Then I would support suggested measures. My beef is than NONE of those issues have been proven. Indeed, there is utter ********, assumption and dismisal of debate which means it is more likely to be fascists trying to get their own way, rather than any real concern for the environment.

07-05-2008, 08:46 AM	#3 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,362	I know there is an argument that this was going to sort itself out anyway, but the fact smog was demonstrably down to pollution (real pollution, not made up pollution like co2), means I think government (backed by the will of the people) were justified in legislating. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

11-05-2008, 08:22 PM	#6 (permalink)
Smidgey Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 1,803 Party: None	Indeed. People often see the industrial revolution as the perfect example against rampant capitalism. I see it as one of the greatest periods of growth and advancement in human civilisation. Sure, there was smog and there were work houses (although they were a government creation), but compared to what went before, unless you were a rich person, it would have been a huge step up. __________________ Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state. They forget that the state wants to live at the expense of everyone. When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will. -Frederic Bastiat

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07-05-2008, 12:18 PM	#4 (permalink)
AlanA Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bolton Posts: 170	I rather liked those 'pea soupers'. It was all we had to eat up north !