mkpdavies

You should be grateful. At least he just ignored your question, instead of trying to ******** you, as with Poptech.

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Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

C_steam

damn. I haven't been ********'d for ages.

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Hartlepool

If you hang around here a while I guarantee you soon will beC_s.

Clippo

C_Steam wrote:-
I have just said in another thread I won't be able to post for a few days - but rest assured I'll be back to 'politely' point out your complete misunderstanding of the ice melting / sea level rise situation.

PS. As a moderator C_Steam I feel you should suggest to your buddy HP that his snide comments are not condusive to reasonable debate.

Poptech

Don't worry while you are gone I will explain it to them:

"What If All the Ice Melts?" Myths and Realities (Wm. Robert Johnston, B.A. Astronomy, M.S. Physics)
Claim That Sea Level Is Rising Is a Total Fraud (PDF) (Nils-Axel Mörner, Emeritus Professor of Paleogeophysics & Geodynamics, Stockholm University)

Observed Changes in Sea Level (IPCC)
Falling - Arctic dips as global waters rise (BBC)
Falling - Falling sea level upsets theory of global warming (The Daily Telegraph, UK)
Falling - Global Warming Can Make Sea Level Plunge (BBC)
Falling - Global Warming Will Lower Sea Levels (Fred Singer, Ph.D. Physics)
Falling - Oceans to fall, not rise, over millions of years (Reuters)
Falling - Sea Levels Are Falling Over the Long Term Because of Lower Basins (The New York Times)

IPCC Falsifies Sea Level Data (The Daily Telegraph, UK)

Hartlepool

Even more brilliant stuff from Poptech for which I thank them.

Note,..C_s,I do believe that clippo has just reprimanded your previous post,he will be running the whole thing in a week or so at this rate eh?

C_steam

so asking questions is out now then is it clippo? Or does your arrogance always assume a question is born out of misunderstanding?

I'll reiterate my questions:-

I take to mean that there is more melting of the ice sheet than previously - ergo more ice has melted, therefore sea level should be affected. My first question - to what extent?

was my second question.

The overall impact of a complete loss of the greenland icecap is an increase in sea level of somewhere between 7 and 10M, depending on which study you look at. Either way, catastrophic. We have seen shrinkage of the sea ice and draw pack of the pack ice limits, so how much of the greenland ice cap have we lost (q3), and what impact has it had so far on sea levels?(as q1)

No misunderstanding, clipppo, just seeking the clarification of the above.

I can wait for you to talk to your buddies first.

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Clippo

Firstly, to get Poptech out of the way, he/she wrote:-
That’s not an explanation of the ‘mechanism’ of ice melting/ sea-level change. It’s the usual sceptic doubt generating diarrhoea from the usual gang of crackpots.
…………………………….
You’ve nearly answered your own doubts C-Steam with your final comments:-

Where I think you are at fault is your assumption that air and/or water temperature is the main criteria. You should rather consider the heat capacity of water and air.
For example, water can hold more heat than an equivalent mass/volume of air.
There are several different measures of heat capacity but as a generalisation water can hold about 4 times as much heat as air by any measure.
For the intellectually challenged, a practical example is that a human can walk in sub-zero temperatures for hours (with reasonable protective clothing) but how long would that human survive after falling into an icy lake?
(The icy lake has a greater capacity to remove heat from a human body than cold air – and I don’t want to get into the semantics of this being a reverse example)

So back to the Arctic situation. You have to identify where the heat is coming from to cause melting.
Consider land ice initially.
There is no significant source of heat from the underlying rocks (okay a small volcanic hot-spot has recently been found in NE Greenland I think but it’s significance in ice melting is small according to consensus of scientists studying it).
The only other source of heat is solar radiation. Don’t quote me accurately on these figures but I think overall measurements suggest 1.3 KW of ‘heat’ fall on every sq. m. of the Earth per day without cloud or aerosol interference. However, ice has a high reflectivity, or albedo, and the actual amount absorbed by ice is about 0.1 i.e. 1%
Considering arctic sea - ice,
Once again, solar radiation is a source but the same comments apply.
The second source of heat is obviously from the ocean waters below the ice. I have already explained how water has a greater heat capacity than air and thus it is the heat in the water which is melting the arctic ice much, much faster than land ice.
Where does the heat come from initially in the arctic ocean ? Well, you now have to bring into play the ocean circulations, particularly the ‘thermohaline circulation’. (This is also known by several other names but in Climate science circles the name Meridional overturning Circulation- abbrev. MOC is widely preferred).
I don’t propose to go into the detail of this. If you are curious, you can do a google search or go to Wiki which has a very balanced account of the science of this:-
Thermohaline circulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Essentially, the MOC in the north Atlantic is continually bringing tropics-warmed water to the arctic ocean and since, due to the greenhouse effect, the surface waters of the tropics are warming even more there is a positive feedback effect in eventually accelerating the arctic sea ice melt.

So, to repeat, I think you had the germ of an explanation in your own last statement.

I think your estimate of 25% of 39%, if I’ve interpreted it correctly, is grossly inflated and I’m not going to hesitate a guess. There is no doubt that some of the Greenland ice sheet is melting but if you want to find out how much, in proportion to the sea ice, I suggest you do some research first through respectable science articles & peer-reviewed papers – as I had to do originally.
Lastly, on this topic I want to point out 2 important secondary effect of sea- ice melting.
a) Whereas, the ‘albedo’ of sea-ice is high, e.g. virtually an insignificant amount of melting results from solar radiation, when the ice has gone, the resulting ocean has virtually no Albedo, e.g. most solar radiation (1.3 KW / m2 per day) is absorbed into the water. This is another positive feedback.
b) Both in the Arctic & Antarctic, the presence of sea ice is thought to have slowed the flow of glaciers to the sea. Melting of sea ice has removed that impediment and at both poles glaciers are now flowing to the sea at increased rates.

I’m getting bored with this. I can’t remember what the current rate of sea rise is and I don’t have time now to look. As I said earlier, why don’t you do some google or other searches. What I do know is that in the last IPCC report there a number of scenarios were presented. The experts in these subjects have in fact criticised the IPCC for being too conservative. Obviously, the writer of your original article link is in this camp – as I am.

Besoeker

From memory, I think that is about right. I showed the basis of my calculations in this forum quite some time ago.
I think that it was in response to a post made by one of the members of long standing. He had worked back from the 7m and got an erroneous (and quite unbelievable) figure for the volume of the Greenland icecap. He thus concluded that the 7m rise was also unbelievable. I had a look at his figures and noted that he had used the 7 as 7km, not 7m. He thanked me for the correction. Aplogies to the original poster - I am not totally certain who it was.

Poptech

Clippo believes these to be crackpot denier sponsored references:

Wm. Robert Johnston, B.A. Astronomy, M.S. Physics
Nils-Axel Mörner, Emeritus Professor of Paleogeophysics & Geodynamics, Stockholm University
IPCC
BBC
The Daily Telegraph, UK
S. Fred Singer, Ph.D. Physics, Professor Emeritus of Environmental Sciences, University of Virginia
Reuters
The New York Times

Wait what is that the IPCC? How did that get in there? Wait did Clippo not read anything I posted and knee jerk reacted to anything posted as he does to everything? I will let you decide.

Clippo then you ask a question I answered:

"Based on tide gauge data, the rate of global mean sea level rise during the 20th century is in the range 1.0 to 2.0 mm/yr. No significant acceleration in the rate of sea level rise during the 20th century has been detected." - IPCC

As for Greenland:

Greenland - 2008, Deep Freeze in Western Greenland (Sermitsiaq, Greenland)
Greenland - 1817, Dramatic Ice loss in the Greenland seas (A History of the Royal Society Archive)
Greenland - Current Melting of Greenland's Ice Mimics 1920s-1940s Event (Science Daily)
Greenland - ERS Altimeter Survey Shows Growth of Greenland Ice Sheet Interior (ESA - European Space Agency)
Greenland - Fossil DNA Proves Greenland Once Had Lush Forests; Ice Sheet Is Surprisingly Stable (Science Daily)
Greenland - Greenland's Glaciers Have Been Receding for 100 Years (University of Aarhus, Denmark)
Greenland - Greenland’s Glaciers Take a Breather (The New York Times)
Greenland - Greenland Ice Sheet Changes Are Normal; No Evidence Of Long-Term Climate Changes (Science Daily)
Greenland - Greenland Temperatures Coldest in 60 Years (The Heartland Institute)
Greenland - Is Greenland really melting? (Patrick J. Michaels, Ph.D. Ecological Climatology)
Greenland - Latest Scientific Studies Refute Fears of Greenland Melt (US Senate Environment & Public Works Committee)
Greenland - Letter to the Editor: Greenland Ice Gain Since World War II (The Heartland Institute)
Greenland - Recent cooling in coastal southern Greenland and relation with the North Atlantic Oscillation (American Geophysical Union)
Greenland - Study Shows Greenland’s Ice Growing (CO2 Science)
Greenland - The Cold Truth about Greenland (Patrick J. Michaels, Ph.D. Ecological Climatology)
Greenland Volcanic Activity - Heat From Earth's Magma Contributing To Melting Of Greenland Ice (Science Daily)

Antarctica is not melting:

Antarctica - Antarctic ice sheet thickening, researcher says (Associated Press)
Antarctica - Antarctic Sea Ice at Record High (The Reference Frame)
Antarctica - Antarctic Sea Ice Increases over Past Two Decades (Space.com)
Antarctica - Antarctic Temperatures Disagree With Climate Model Predictions (Science Daily)
Antarctica - East Antarctica's surface slowly rising (The New York Times)
Antarctica - Geologists Find That Tides Control Flow Of Antarctic Ice Streams (Science Daily)
Antarctica - Ice Core 'Dipstick' Indicates West Antarctic Ice Has Thinned Less Than Believed (Science Daily)
Antarctica - Ice 'thickens' in West Antarctica (BBC)
Antarctica - No Major Changes Seen In Stability Of Antarctic Ice Sheet (Science Daily)
Antarctica - Pondering A Climate Conundrum In Antarctica; Unique, Distinct Cooling Trend Discovered On Earth's Southernmost Continent (Science Daily)
Antarctica - Researchers: Antarctica Ice Sheet Stable (ABC News)
Antarctica - Researchers find Antarctic ice is thickening (USA Today)
Antarctica - Satellites Show Overall Increases In Antarctic Sea Ice Cover (NASA)
Antarctica - Scientists Detect Thickening Of West Antarctic Ice Sheet (Science Daily)
Antarctica - Scientists Rule Out One Threat Of Antarctic Collapse (Science Daily)
Antarctica - Snowfall-Driven Growth in East Antarctic Ice Sheet Mitigates Recent Sea-Level Rise (Science)
Antarctica - Study: Antarctic Ice Sheet Is Thickening, Not Thinning (ABC News)
Antarctica - The Antarctic deep sea gets colder (EurekAlert! AAAS)
Antarctica - Tidal Motion Influences Antarctic Ice Sheet (Science Daily)
Antarctica - The Antarctic Ice Sheet is Growing Thicker (Not by Fire but by Ice)
Antarctica Ice Shelves - Antarctic Ice Shelf Collapse Blamed On More Than Climate Change (Science Daily)
Antarctica Ice Shelves - Antarctic Ice Shelf Retreats Happened Before (Science Daily)
Antarctica Ice Shelves - The Wilkins Ice Shelf Con Job (Icecap)
Antarctica Volcanic Activity - First Evidence Of Under-ice Volcanic Eruption In Antarctica (Science Daily)
Antarctica Volcanic Activity - Protective Ice Flow in Antarctica Linked to Warmth of Volcanoes (The New York Times)
Antarctica Volcanic Activity - Scientists Discover Undersea Volcano Off Antarctica (Science Daily)
Antarctica Volcanic Activity - Scientists Find Active Volcano in Antarctica (The New York Times)