Central Plank Of Global Warming Alarmism Discredited

youcanhandlethetruth · 15-04-2008, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unionist

YCHTT has also chosen to argue with the Hadley Centre's points rather than deal with the issue I presented, which is the claim that the Hadley Centre has reversed its position on AGW. I am suggesting that it has not. Have you actually got any evidence to the contrary?

Also, YCHTT, in a post on another thread just now you called me blind, stupid, brainwashed or a traitor. Now you are calling me false. I thought personal attacks of that nature were not allowed. Why don't you just stick to the points in question?

I'm sure the Hadley Centre do continue to keep up it's political propagnda agenda.
I would be completely shocked if it didn't.

I'm totally sticking to the points in question but I'm exercising my right to give my opinion (based on the facts I presented) too.

You can hardly throw your toys out of the pram and complain of "personal attacks" when you are the first to avoid the hard facts presented by national newspapers and regard them and me as "conspiracy theorists".

Very sorry if free speech offends you......

Maybe you're just sore at having lost the argument ?.....

................

"I haven't lost the argument........"

Besoeker · 15-04-2008, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youcanhandlethetruth

I'm sure the Hadley Centre do continue to keep up it's political propagnda agenda.
I would be completely shocked if it didn't.

So you accept that the Hadley Centre has not reversed it's position?

Akria · 15-04-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petrina

*snipped for brevity*

As Besoeker said earlier, a source would be nice. As would the mentioned PDF and report.

Quote:

Originally Posted by g hall

Unionist

These are opinions NOT facts they may be working thesis but are not 100% proven, much like the other lies that MMGW people peddle

Nothing in science can be proven. I have shown this before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by youcanhandlethetruth

... Fake 1: Climate change is happening and humans are contributing to it
Yes - so we're told day in day out despite the massive scientific lack of consensus.

Oreskes showed several years ago that there was a consensus, and Schultz, even despite his flawed methodology, couldn't even act to counter this. The National Academies of 21 nations have signed statements endorsing the IPCC view as the scientific consensus on climate change. So too has the AAAS, AMS, UCS, NOAA, NCR, AGU, ACS, NCAR, AASC, USGS, NCS... the list goes on and on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by youcanhandlethetruth

Fake 2: Temperatures are continuing to rise
Hmmm - no.
China has had it's coldest winter for may years, and this is the coldest April in the UK for many years - sounds more like cooling I'd say.

So you're taking a single anomalous yea - hell, not even a year, a season! - and claiming that as evidence of global cooling?
Despite the fact that even since 1998 there has been a warming trend?

Quote:

Originally Posted by youcanhandlethetruth

Fake 3: The current climate change is not just part of a natural cycle
More heresay and no evidence.

Well, aside from the decrease in general solar activity over the past four decades (quite an odd contrast to the temperature record, which has broadly followed it with only a small time lag for many centuries), lack of a discernible trend in the cosmic ray record (even assuming that something so discredited can be assumed to have an effect on climate) and lack of any noticeable shift in other natural forcings...
Unless you can come up with a counter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by youcanhandlethetruth

Fake 4: Recent warming cannot be explained by the Sun or natural factors alone
But it can be explained by humans. Right.....

I now summarise an old cliche thusly: 'quack!'
I imagine you can work out what it means.

Quote:

Originally Posted by youcanhandlethetruth

Fake 5: If we continue emitting greenhouse gases this warming will continue and delaying action will make the problem more difficult to fix

Except that there is no problem to begin with - as the leading scientist Revelle stated Co2 emmisions would actually offset any large global tempreature variations.

I assume you mean the benefits of climate change and increased atmospheric CO2 offset the problems caused by climate change?
And can you show that there is no problem?

Quote:

Originally Posted by youcanhandlethetruth

Fact 6: Climate models predict the main features of future climate

Wrong. They are notoriously innacurate and misleading.
Antarctic temperatures disagree with climate model predictions

Climate models are universally admitted to be nowhere near perfect, and it is accepted that we do not have a decent enough understanding of the climate to make perfectly accurate predictions. Reading the article not only gives me the impression that the disagreement is quite reasonable given this, but also that global warming does still appear to be going, regardless of whether the models make mistakes in their predictions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by youcanhandlethetruth

I'm sure the Hadley Centre do continue to keep up it's political propagnda agenda.
I would be completely shocked if it didn't.

I'm totally sticking to the points in question but I'm exercising my right to give my opinion (based on the facts I presented) too.

You can hardly throw your toys out of the pram and complain of "personal attacks" when you are the first to avoid the hard facts presented by national newspapers and regard them and me as "conspiracy theorists".

Very sorry if free speech offends you......

Maybe you're just sore at having lost the argument ?.....

................

"I haven't lost the argument........"

It didn't look to me as if he had lost the argument. Indeed, quite the opposite- even though you branched off the actual argument to debate a point quite tangential to the topic.

g hall · 15-04-2008, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akria

Nothing in science can be proven. I have shown this before.

Prove it

actually some things can be proven

Quote:

Oreskes showed several years ago that there was a consensus, and Schultz, even despite his flawed methodology, couldn't even act to counter this. The National Academies of 21 nations have signed statements endorsing the IPCC view as the scientific consensus on climate change. So too has the AAAS, AMS, UCS, NOAA, NCR, AGU, ACS, NCAR, AASC, USGS, NCS... the list goes on and on.

CONsensus or peer pressure and yes they and you do go on and on defending the indefensible

Quote:

So you're taking a single anomalous yea - hell, not even a year, a season! - and claiming that as evidence of global cooling?
Despite the fact that even since 1998 there has been a warming trend?

The facts show for longer then a year and you can pick and choose your anomalies to fit your theory - I'm sure you've heard of lies, damned lies and statistics

Quote:

Well, aside from the decrease in general solar activity over the past four decades (quite an odd contrast to the temperature record, which has broadly followed it with only a small time lag for many centuries), lack of a discernible trend in the cosmic ray record (even assuming that something so discredited can be assumed to have an effect on climate) and lack of any noticeable shift in other natural forcings...
Unless you can come up with a counter?

Amazing how gullible people can be

Quote:

I now summarise an old cliche thusly: 'quack!'
I imagine you can work out what it means.

Talks like an ID10T probably is an ID10T

Quote:

I assume you mean the benefits of climate change and increased atmospheric CO2 offset the problems caused by climate change?
And can you show that there is no problem?

climate changes down as well as up and presents opportunities NOT problems

Quote:

Climate models are universally admitted to be nowhere near perfect, and it is accepted that we do not have a decent enough understanding of the climate to make perfectly accurate predictions. Reading the article not only gives me the impression that the disagreement is quite reasonable given this, but also that global warming does still appear to be going, regardless of whether the models make mistakes in their predictions.

absolutely nowhere near perfect and yet you and others when given evidence to the contrary still prefer to believe it - doh

youcanhandlethetruth · 15-04-2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Besoeker

So you accept that the Hadley Centre has not reversed it's position?

Better to ask the Hadley Centre than ask me to be their spokesperson.

If Unionist says the website hasn't changed I can believe it but obviously there is a stark contradiction between the e-mail and the website. Whichever one you believe you can argue the case for the other.

I can't predict whether the Hadley Centre will officially change tack or not - we will have to see....

Akria · 15-04-2008, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g hall

Prove it

actually some things can be proven

Haha, yes, very funny.

Why I bother I don't know.

It is only possible to prove things in mathematics and pure logic, the latter being a subfield of the former. In science - impossible!
I have given logical proof, or as near as only an amateur logician such as myself can do, in past threads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by g hall

CONsensus or peer pressure and yes they and you do go on and on defending the indefensible

Hmmm. YCHTT disputed the consensus thing as if it were worth something, and you then reply to me effectively stating that it isn't worth anything. I am not the one to make a claim antithetical to yours, so why you replied to me and not YCHTT I don't know.

However, I would ask you to provide backing evidence here for your claims.

Quote:

Originally Posted by g hall

The facts show for longer then a year and you can pick and choose your anomalies to fit your theory - I'm sure you've heard of lies, damned lies and statistics

Evidence, please?
And when you've done the statistics yourself and arrived at the same results you tend to have a bit more faith in them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by g hall

Amazing how gullible people can be

How so?

Quote:

Originally Posted by g hall

Talks like an ID10T probably is an ID10T

Says he who demonstrates no half-decent grasp of written English.

Quote:

Originally Posted by g hall

climate changes down as well as up and presents opportunities NOT problems

Hmmm.

"There are no problems, only opportunities."
"Of course, sir. And the opportunity here is that we have a bomb set to go off very soon."

Quote:

Originally Posted by g hall

absolutely nowhere near perfect and yet you and others when given evidence to the contrary still prefer to believe it - doh

Oh?
If given evidence to the contrary then I will doubt the models to which such evidence is given, although of course only if the contrary evidence outweighs the supporting evidence.

As it is, I have seen no major contradictions between these models and reality. Indeed, thus far even the Hadley Centre's short-term predictions as a result of limited modelling seem to be holding true, with something of a plateau perhaps developing during the latter parts of this decade.
It will be interesting to see how the future develops.

tito · 15-04-2008, 09:09 PM

Off topic, Akria; knowledge can be objective. We aren't certain to be uncertain.

Akria · 15-04-2008, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tito

Off topic, Akria; knowledge can be objective. We aren't certain to be uncertain.

That is a viewpoint that can be held. However, I don't see how pure logic can be objective - and that could be held to be part of any objectivity, I suppose.

g hall · 16-04-2008, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akria

Haha, yes, very funny.

Why I bother I don't know.

And I suspect many others here wonder that

rjt · 16-04-2008, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g hall

And I suspect many others here wonder that

Yes I tend to agree with that especially if things are as bad as the prophets of doom seem to think they are one wonders why they are not out there in the world doing something about it rather than wittering on to people who are more intresting in tackling the real problems facing this country.

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