Englander 1

When Gordon Brown invited Wendy Alexander, the Labour leader in Scotland, to reverse her oft-repeated antipathy to a referendum on Scottish independence, she appears not to have hesitated. Wendy, like her sibling, Douglas, the International Development Secretary, is among the Prime Minister's fawning loyalists. She knows that an early referendum is now the only route to the answer Mr Brown needs. The Conservative local election triumph has changed utterly the politics of unionism.

While Labour retains power, Scots might be persuaded to keep the Union and with it the phalanx of Scottish Labour MPs without whom only Tony Blair, among modern Labour leaders, won a parliamentary majority. A Tory government with a handful of Scottish seats would revive complaints about Scotland's democratic deficit, inflate support for the divorce that Alex Salmond craves and render impossible the election of another Scottish prime minister.

But if Ms Alexander's handbrake turn leads to a hasty vote on Britain's future, the real democratic deficit will be in England. The 1707 Treaty of Union, passed both by the Westminster and Edinburgh parliaments, reflected the combined will of both political establishments to augment the union of the crowns with a merger of national legislatures. Ending the Union demands the same mutual consent.

When Donald Dewar ignored England in the referendum that authorised Scottish devolution, senior Labour figures questioned his logic. They were mollified by his insistence that English interests were not harmed - Westminster remained sovereign and Holyrood a dependent subsidiary. This time, though the English must be consulted. True, they might cry good riddance to their irksome northern neighbours. But it is not madness to hope that wise majorities on both sides of the Border will assert themselves

Full Story
Scottish independence: the key issue | Tim Luckhurst - Times Online

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"There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other.
That word is ENGLAND." - Sir Winston Churchill

http://englander1.blogspot.com/

cassie

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I have been saying this for months, but we still have the mistaken notion (A) that referenda are more than mere expressions of collective opinion; and (B) that only the Scots (or Welsh or N Irish as the case may be] can have 'em!

English independence or separatism still divides English nationalists, but the one thing which can unite them is demanding full participation of voters in England in ANY referenda about the future of ANY part of the UK. The referenda in 1979 and 1997 were travesties of democracy along with the subsequent fiasco in the north east of England!

Continued denial of equal rights for citizens in England about such important constitutional matters are effectively admissions that the UK is dying, if not yet dead! We still get Scots on this forum asserting that England is not entitled to have any say about Scotland's future! So much for their idea of democracy and fairness!


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shagpile

No. Why sould one person in a marrage veto a divorce? One partner decides to leave and the marrage is over, it's really that simple. How should this marrage/union be enforced, tanks & English troops on the Streets of Edinburgh? Ahhh, that's why Churchhill is so popular amongst those of a 'British' persuation.

Little Englander (sour)

because, Shagpile, there's going to be a whole load of **** left hanging in the breeze.
So, we let Scotland declare "independence" and off they sail into the sunset singing and dancing leaving the rest of the constituent countries to sort out the **** left behind. who, for instance, wants the fag end problems of Northern Ireland, I (an Englishman) fcuking don't.
All the "English" tax payers money paid to HBOS and RBS, I as an Englishman want it back. etc. etc.
Are you absolutely devoid of grey matter?.

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Little Englander (bigoted)

rjt

You hit on a key point, what if Scotland says yes to independance and England votes no!

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Mr Delors said that he wanted the European Parliament to be the democratic body of the community, The Commission to be The Executive and The Council Of Ministers The Senate. NO! NO! NO!
(Margaret Thatcher 30 Oct 1990)

Ignore List: The Prophets of ST Al the Unelectable.

Smidgey

Everyone should have a vote, but the marriage analogy - I believe - still stands here.

I'm just wondering how such a vote would work. Surely each nation would vote for its future and not the future of the others?

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Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state. They forget that the state wants to live at the expense of everyone.

When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will.

-Frederic Bastiat

shagpile

You sound like an abusive spouse here mate, CHILL!!

The recent Grangemouth strike has shown to the least aware 'Jock' (or 'sweaty'; if you prefer) that, THAT one refinery is responsible for providing (almost) the entire Scottish block grant!

Take it just a wee bit further...... What if the rest of the EU, DON'T want the UK to leave the EU?

A wee bit further still, why is it OK for Scotland to be governed by Westminster dictats, yet not good for the UK to be governed by EU dictats?

If the Scots are desperately needed by the UK, why all the patronising **** etc. re. subsidies?

Rebirth

England will be fine with or without Scotland. Some of us just don't have the heart to sell Scotland out to Brussels. That job falls upon the fakes who used bigotry to gain support.

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Britannist

Scotland could, of course, leave the UK if she wishes to. And the rest of the UK (Wales, Northern Ireland and England) would just carry on (in Union with each other) without her.

But no one in Scotland should think that under the europhile Scottish so-called 'National' Party (SNP) Scotland would be independent.

Under SNP plans Scotland would be dissolved into the EU Superstate now under construction where she would account for about 0.7% of the total EU population. The SNP would not only submerge Scotland into the EU single state but they would destroy the ancient Scottish Pound replacing it with the euro.

The SNP seek to get sovereignty from Westminster and give it straight to their masters in the EU instead. They are euro-nationalists who are on the side of europe and not Scotland.

I think Scotland should stay in the UK - but if this Labour shower in power at Westminster do not let England have her own Parliament (to match the powers of the one in Scotland) then opposition to the UK in England will continue to rise and there may no UK Union left for Scotland to be a member of.

rjt

Indeed, Scotland would in effect become extinct.

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Mr Delors said that he wanted the European Parliament to be the democratic body of the community, The Commission to be The Executive and The Council Of Ministers The Senate. NO! NO! NO!
(Margaret Thatcher 30 Oct 1990)

Ignore List: The Prophets of ST Al the Unelectable.