The English did not vote on Scots devolution. They must do so on breaking up the Unio

cassie · 12-05-2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Britannist

I have to state that you are wrong, Northumbrian. I know that you do not like the UK and want it to go - but (thank goodness) the United Kingdom would still exist should Scotland quit it.

England was in Union with Wales before The Act of Union with Scotland of 1707. Consequently, the ancient Union of Wales and England would continue should The Act Of Union between Scotland and England/Wales be ended. The Act Of Union 1707 does not cover the Union of England and Wales which already existed at the time of The Act Of Union of England/Wales with Scotland. The 1707 Act refers to England/Wales in Union with Scotland.

So, if Scotland quit the UK and The Act Of Union of 1707 were dissolved it leaves the following:

England and Wales in Union with each other.

Northern Ireland in Union with a Great Britain which would not include Scotland but which would include Wales and England.

In other words, a Union of England, Wales and Northern Ireland - the United Kingdom without Scotland.

And before you try to tell us that The Act of Union of Ireland with Great Britain would cease to exist if Scotland quit the UK: The Act of Union of Ireland with Great Britain survived the departure from the UK of the land area which now calls itself the Irish Republic and it (what is now The Act of Union of Northern Ireland with Great Britain) would survive the departure of Scotland from the UK.

Yes, a comprehensive and accurate description of the position I was referring to, Britannist! Thank you.

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Britannist · 12-05-2008, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cassie

Yes, a comprehensive and accurate description of the position I was referring to, Britannist! Thank you.

Thank you for your kind comments, Cassie.

I think we have both tried to explain before to Northumbrian the exact constitutional position in the UK which would exist in the scenario of Scotland quitting the Union of the UK. But - because he is so anti-UK - Northumbrian appears unable to accept the fact that the UK would just carry on without Scotland (if Scotland chose to end Union with England, Northern Ireland and Wales).

cassie · 13-05-2008, 12:28 AM

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I've discovered some interesting figures about the 1975 Referendum about continued membership of the then EEC. The results are analysed by the four home nations - a detail which, curiously, is omitted from the Electoral Commission's website, see: The Electoral Commission : Referendums : Past UK referendums : UK - 1975

Here is the analysis:

The question on the paper was: “Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (The Common Market)?”

In England the voting was:

Yes – 14,918,009 (68.7%)
No – 6,812,052 (31.3%)

Spoilt papers – 42,161
-------------------------------

In Wales the voting was:

Yes – 869,135 (64.8%)
No – 472,071 (35.2%)

Spoilt papers – 4,339
------------------------------

In Scotland the voting was:

Yes – 1,332,186 (58.4%)
No – 948,039 (41.6%)

Spoilt papers – 6,541
-------------------------------

In Northern Ireland the voting was:

Yes – 259,251 (52.1%)

No – 237,911 (47.9%)

Spoilt papers – 1,589
-------------------------------

Total United Kingdom:

Yes – 17,378,581 (67.2%)

No – 8,470,073 (32.8%)

Spoilt papers – 54,540

Total turnout = 64% of registered electorate
-------------------------------

On this showing, voters in England were more in favour of remaining in the EEC than elsewhere! Maybe the perception of Scotland being more pro-EU than England is a false one which has been carefully nurtured by Alex Salmond and the SNP?

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Here's the link: ::1975 Referendum on EEC membership::

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BonnieDundee · 13-05-2008, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Britannist

When you write "if either of them vote not to (save the Union of the UK) then it should go" I assume you are referring specifically to the Union between England and Scotland.

If Scotland were to quit the Union of the UK then the Union of the UK would just carry on without her (as a Union of Wales, Northern Ireland and England). It would not "go" (your word from the quote above) if Scotland left the UK.

Okay whatever, who cares. Are you just trying to keep up your post count?

BonnieDundee · 13-05-2008, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Britannist

I have to state that you are wrong, Northumbrian. I know that you do not like the UK and want it to go - but (thank goodness) the United Kingdom would still exist should Scotland quit it.

England was in Union with Wales before The Act of Union with Scotland of 1707. Consequently, the ancient Union of Wales and England would continue should The Act Of Union between Scotland and England/Wales be ended. The Act Of Union 1707 does not cover the Union of England and Wales which already existed at the time of The Act Of Union of England/Wales with Scotland. The 1707 Act refers to England/Wales in Union with Scotland.

So, if Scotland quit the UK and The Act Of Union of 1707 were dissolved it leaves the following:

England and Wales in Union with each other.

Northern Ireland in Union with a Great Britain which would not include Scotland but which would include Wales and England.

In other words, a Union of England, Wales and Northern Ireland - the United Kingdom without Scotland.

And before you try to tell us that The Act of Union of Ireland with Great Britain would cease to exist if Scotland quit the UK: The Act of Union of Ireland with Great Britain survived the departure from the UK of the land area which now calls itself the Irish Republic and it (what is now The Act of Union of Northern Ireland with Great Britain) would survive the departure of Scotland from the UK.

Actually Wales was made part of England there was no union. The Union is generally that of England and Scotland but without Scotland the only remaining union is England and Northern Ireland unless Wales becomes a proper nation again with a parliament.

I personally hope the union between Scotland and England, which is often just called the union, remains.

Northumbrian · 13-05-2008, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Britannist

Thank you for your kind comments, Cassie.

I think we have both tried to explain before to Northumbrian the exact constitutional position in the UK which would exist in the scenario of Scotland quitting the Union of the UK. But - because he is so anti-UK - Northumbrian appears unable to accept the fact that the UK would just carry on without Scotland (if Scotland chose to end Union with England, Northern Ireland and Wales).

Britannist, have you got any proof of that from a legal position? Because I'm sure any half decent lawyer could put a case for the invalidity of the Union following Scottish independence.

Britannist · 14-05-2008, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

Britannist wrote: When you write "if either of them vote not to (save the Union of the UK) then it should go" I assume you are referring specifically to the Union between England and Scotland.

If Scotland were to quit the Union of the UK then the Union of the UK would just carry on without her (as a Union of Wales, Northern Ireland and England). It would not "go" (your word from the quote above) if Scotland left the UK.

BonnieDundee wrote: Okay whatever, who cares.

We care. It's our Union too.

Britannist · 14-05-2008, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

The Union is generally that of England and Scotland but without Scotland the only remaining union is England and Northern Ireland unless Wales becomes a proper nation again with a parliament.

I personally hope the union between Scotland and England, which is often just called the union, remains.

The Union of the UK is not - as stated above - "generally that of England and Scotland."

The Union is a Union of two nations - England and Scotland - and of the Welsh Principality and the Province of Ulster (Northern Ireland). Four different parts of the UK - not two.

Wales and England were together centuries before they joined in Union with Scotland. And, after Scotland expanded that Union, Ireland then entered into Union with Great Britain (Scotland, Wales and England).

As we know, the United Kingdom as it is now constructed stems from:

The Act of Union of England/Wales with Scotland and The Act of Union of Ireland with Great Britain.

The Act of Union of Ireland with Great Britain has survived the departure of 60% of the island of Ireland from the UK (i.e. the area now known as the Irish Republic) and it would survive the departure of Scotland from the UK because Scotland is a part but not the whole of Great Britain.

As I wrote earlier, even if both of the Acts of Union referred to above became defunct as a result of Scotland quitting the UK - Wales, Northern Ireland and England would just pass a new Act for a revamped UK (consisting of Wales, Northern Ireland and England) without Scotland if that were the will of the peoples of Wales, Northern Ireland and England (as I believe it would be).

Britannist · 14-05-2008, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northumbrian

.....could put a case for the invalidity of the Union following Scottish independence.

You seem pretty desperate to get rid of the UK don't you Northumbrian?

Many could put the case that Scotland's departure from the UK would not end the Union of the UK. The departure of the land area that is now the Irish Republic from the UK did not mean that the Act of Union of Ireland with Great Britain ended.

If Scotland quit the Union of the UK, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would carry on (through the 1801 Act of Union of Ireland with Great Britain) as Northern Ireland in Union with those parts of Great Britain still in the UK - Wales and England.

The Act of Union of Ireland with Great Britain of 1801 was with Great Britain and not specifically with England, Wales or Scotland. Consequently, because Great Britain would not cease to exist if Scotland quit the UK, then the UK would just continue (through the Act of Union of Ireland with Great Britain) after the departure of Scotland from the Union of the UK.

Of course, should Scotland quit the UK, then England/Wales and Northern Ireland (where I would expect people in all three to support continuance of the Union of the UK after Scotland quit it) might decide to approve a new updated UK Act of Union (replacing the two Acts of Union we have now - one of which would be defunct if Scotland pulled out of the UK).

Let us hope that Scotland remains in the UK and that the Act of Union of England/Wales with Scotland remains in force.

BonnieDundee · 14-05-2008, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Britannist

We care. It's our Union too.

Now you are just being annoying for the sake of it. My point was simply it does not matter. When people informally use the term that is what they mean.

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13-05-2008, 12:28 AM	#43 (permalink)
cassie Uber Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,623	------------------------- I've discovered some interesting figures about the 1975 Referendum about continued membership of the then EEC. The results are analysed by the four home nations - a detail which, curiously, is omitted from the Electoral Commission's website, see: The Electoral Commission : Referendums : Past UK referendums : UK - 1975 Here is the analysis: The question on the paper was: “Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (The Common Market)?” In England the voting was: Yes – 14,918,009 (68.7%) No – 6,812,052 (31.3%) Spoilt papers – 42,161 ------------------------------- In Wales the voting was: Yes – 869,135 (64.8%) No – 472,071 (35.2%) Spoilt papers – 4,339 ------------------------------ In Scotland the voting was: Yes – 1,332,186 (58.4%) No – 948,039 (41.6%) Spoilt papers – 6,541 ------------------------------- In Northern Ireland the voting was: Yes – 259,251 (52.1%) No – 237,911 (47.9%) Spoilt papers – 1,589 ------------------------------- Total United Kingdom: Yes – 17,378,581 (67.2%) No – 8,470,073 (32.8%) Spoilt papers – 54,540 Total turnout = 64% of registered electorate ------------------------------- On this showing, voters in England were more in favour of remaining in the EEC than elsewhere! Maybe the perception of Scotland being more pro-EU than England is a false one which has been carefully nurtured by Alex Salmond and the SNP? Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Here's the link: ::1975 Referendum on EEC membership:: ------------------------------------------