The English did not vote on Scots devolution. They must do so on breaking up the Unio

Northumbrian · 25-05-2008, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

I don't think that is a bad thing. I'm the one who's ideas are least based on emotionalism and abstractions. You and Shagpile are nationalists, you have intense feelings for large areas which you know and have seen little of most of it. You know few people and landscapes of these areas well and you have spent little time in most of them.

I'm dignifiedly passionate about the autonomy of areas I know extremely well, have spent long years, have roots and know alot of the people.

You make one hell of an assumption. I have travelled to most parts of England. On numerous occasions I have visited Scotland. I have been to Wales 3 times and Northern Ireland 3 times. From what I have seen from those 3 countries, is that they are sufficiently different to be separate from England.

BonnieDundee · 26-05-2008, 04:04 AM

That is not what I meant. You could never have really got to known the vast majority of England let alone the rest of the UK or the world unless you are thousands of years old. Hence both intense nationalism and internationalism are largely meaningless and a worship of an abstraction. To really know a rather small area such as the Mallaig area or North Cornwall and its people and landscape takes at a decade and without such knowledge and continued experience intense patriotism like that espoused by English and Scottish nationalists, which they often replace their own self-worth with, is simply the worship of an abstraction.

BonnieDundee · 26-05-2008, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shagpile

These are not benefits! They're neither decided exclusively by the Scots in our national interests, and nor does the Scottish parliament have any say in the formulation of these polocies.

Gladly, we would indeed not have these without the 'union'.

Well that is a whole different debate then.

Quote:

You mean you're clinging on to some romantic notion, fearing a change which you concede "might be slightly better".

I'm clinging to real notion, something which is real to me as Scotland can never be. Instead of one who worships an abstraction. I know Lochaber and North Cornwall, these are my homelands, these are areas I've spent many years getting to know the people and landscape. Even if you were a hundred you could say only do this with about ten rather small areas in Scotland and then you'd have to quite regularly go visit those you didn't currently live at.

BonnieDundee · 26-05-2008, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shagpile

If I were to be the 'touchy' type Dundee, I might feel insulted that you have made these assertions of me without knowing me or my life experiences which contribute to my honestly held point of view.
You admit your views are based on emotion, my views are not.

Well firstly I don't remember admitting that, in fact I accused you and the English nats(truth be told I was mostly aiming it at them but I didn't want to seem biased.) base your views on intense emotional worship of abstractions you cannot really know like England and Scotland because they are simply too large to know the landscapes and people. I do however believe some emotion is okay just not such intense sentimentalism for an abstraction.

To me Lochaber and North Cornwall mean the most to me, far more than Scotland, England, the UK or even Cornwall and it seems alot more natural because I know these areas well and the people through years of experience.

Where do you come from in Scotland?

Quote:

When I was in the RAF, I found that Scots serving south of the border were more 'British' in outlook politically. Conversely I found many; although not all, English people politically were more sympathetic to Scottish independence. Which probably can explain why the SNP have a large number of English people in their membership.

My problem with the SNP apart from them not being radical decentralists and my attachment to a ceremonial confederae union is that they seem to want to swap the current union with a much worse European one.

Independence Now! · 26-05-2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shagpile

Ah yes, of course! We need to be part of the union so England can take us out of the EU.... such nonsense.

No, it isn't. The best chance of either of us leaving the EU is to stay as a United Kingdom and come out of it together. Both of us would be so economically weak separated that the idea of coming out of the EU would scare the people even more than it does now.

Independence Now! · 26-05-2008, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northumbrian

Though Irish citizens have never been allowed to vote for our Head of State.

Neither have we but I have no problem with that as I am a Monarchist.

Independence Now! · 26-05-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

Well firstly I don't remember admitting that, in fact I accused you and the English nats(truth be told I was mostly aiming it at them but I didn't want to seem biased.) base your views on intense emotional worship of abstractions you cannot really know like England and Scotland because they are simply too large to know the landscapes and people. I do however believe some emotion is okay just not such intense sentimentalism for an abstraction.

To me Lochaber and North Cornwall mean the most to me, far more than Scotland, England, the UK or even Cornwall and it seems alot more natural because I know these areas well and the people through years of experience.

Where do you come from in Scotland?

My problem with the SNP apart from them not being radical decentralists and my attachment to a ceremonial confederae union is that they seem to want to swap the current union with a much worse European one.

Indeed they do. They also seem to have a belief that Scotland would receive large amounts of money from the EU like the Republic of Ireland did. In that, they are totally wrong as the Republic used-up a lot of the money and the Eastern Block countries are now receiving the money instead.

Northumbrian · 26-05-2008, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

That is not what I meant. You could never have really got to known the vast majority of England let alone the rest of the UK or the world unless you are thousands of years old. Hence both intense nationalism and internationalism are largely meaningless and a worship of an abstraction. To really know a rather small area such as the Mallaig area or North Cornwall and its people and landscape takes at a decade and without such knowledge and continued experience intense patriotism like that espoused by English and Scottish nationalists, which they often replace their own self-worth with, is simply the worship of an abstraction.

I don't know the vast majority of people who live in Newcastle, and I've lived here all my life.

But you make a strange point. For example, on one occasion I visited Egypt. Before I interacted with anyone I knew it was a lot different from England.

Your concept of regionalism is as much of an abstraction as nationalism.

BonnieDundee · 27-05-2008, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northumbrian

I don't know the vast majority of people who live in Newcastle, and I've lived here all my life.

But you make a strange point. For example, on one occasion I visited Egypt. Before I interacted with anyone I knew it was a lot different from England.

Your concept of regionalism is as much of an abstraction as nationalism.

No it isn't that makes no sense, it can't by definition. What you are simply demonstrating is two truths I already know, firstly that it is local areas and not regions that are most important and I support most power being there and secondly that large cities are destructive to local spirit and tend to lead to alienation and isolation but my theories are far less abstractions than your nationalism.

CymruAmByth · 27-05-2008, 11:12 PM

I personally find that Scots living outside of Scotland are very staunchly British. I remember once I was defacing an English only sign (with fellow welsh language campaigners) not far from my home when a Scotsman started shouting "Ima gonnae phone the police yerr terroreeests"

Ive also heared scotswoman complaing about welsh language signs in our local supermarket & I once worked with a glaswegian who I never once remember him calling himself scottish- he always referred to himself as British.

Gordon Brown lives in London & he's always going on about being British.

26-05-2008, 04:04 AM	#122 (permalink)
BonnieDundee Uber Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Between Mallaig and Cornwall. Posts: 2,642	That is not what I meant. You could never have really got to known the vast majority of England let alone the rest of the UK or the world unless you are thousands of years old. Hence both intense nationalism and internationalism are largely meaningless and a worship of an abstraction. To really know a rather small area such as the Mallaig area or North Cornwall and its people and landscape takes at a decade and without such knowledge and continued experience intense patriotism like that espoused by English and Scottish nationalists, which they often replace their own self-worth with, is simply the worship of an abstraction. __________________ "It is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday facilitate a police state." -Bruce Schneier How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your TV; build your own cabin and pss off front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.* Edward Abbey Leopold Kohr.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

27-05-2008, 11:12 PM	#130 (permalink)
CymruAmByth Newbie Join Date: May 2008 Location: Cymru (Wa;es) Posts: 2 Party: None	I personally find that Scots living outside of Scotland are very staunchly British. I remember once I was defacing an English only sign (with fellow welsh language campaigners) not far from my home when a Scotsman started shouting "Ima gonnae phone the police yerr terroreeests" Ive also heared scotswoman complaing about welsh language signs in our local supermarket & I once worked with a glaswegian who I never once remember him calling himself scottish- he always referred to himself as British. Gordon Brown lives in London & he's always going on about being British.