Time Has Come To Give England Her Own Parliament

Richard the Lionheart · 29-04-2008, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cassie

To be more precise: you want a referendum on whether England should separate from the rest of the UK!

Fair enough, but you must accept that others have a different approach to the matter of England's constitutional situation. Others believe that there is much greater support solely for a separate English Parliament and that associating the campaign for that with separation will impair the prospects for an English Parliament by increasing opposition which would otherwise not be there. You do not agree - fair enough. You did not remain with the EDP but joined the FEP - again fair enough.

Even so, whenever anyone dares to express the view that a separate English Parliament could be created within the framework of the UK, up you pop to press the dissolution point without ever seeming to accept that there really are other valid positions!

Reminds me of all those clerics who keep on asserting what God is or is not as though they are proven facts instead of what they actually are: beliefs!

To my mind, it IS possible to discuss the creation of a separate English Parliament leaving open the matter of whether it could be within or without the framework of the UK.

The insistence upon an English Parliament being solely in a separated England detracts from any discussion of the forms such a parliament might take, whether as part of the UK or separate. Consequently, we NEVER reach the point where consideration would be given to whether new forms of election or composition should be adopted. After all, the model used for the British Parliament is pretty ancient now, and we have examples of different features having been introduced in Scotland and Wales. Are 'top-up lists' or AV to be considered or rejected out of hand. Will Divisions be retained?

___________________________

You miss the point here and that is I would happily accept an English parliament within the UK if that was on offer, but unlike you, I would prefer to see that parliament have stronger powers. Why would you want to see an English parliament limited by the powers of a UK parliament? Do you think the English aren't capable of governing themselves in their entirety?

I sometimes wonder why so many people preach the doctrine of a federal UK yet despise the idea of a federal EU. Some of the principles are similar: allowing another government to retain control of a national parliament; the same currency; free movement of goods services and people; single market; the ability to allow non-elected people to impose laws.

Let's say for example, there was a federal UK and the UK government imposed a tax regime all over the UK that suited Scotland and Wales, but was detrimental to England, or allowed mass immigration, or took the UK into illegal wars, you would be the first up in arms about it, and an English parliament would have no say in any of these things whatsoever.

Johnny Hates Jazz · 29-04-2008, 10:58 PM

A Federal UK/British Isles could include

England
Scotland
Wales
Ireland all or part

Isle of Man
Channel Islands
Gibralter
Cayman Islands

Plus other overseas Territories that I can't be bothered to look up at the moment.

================================================== ===============
What Advantages would England have in a Federal Britain (with fiscal automony)

Well these are the ones I can think of.

Secure Northern Border
Secure Western Border

Secure Western Island (Ireland)

===========================

Common Defence Force
Common Network of Embassies

===========================

The best people to decide on whether we should have an Independent England or England within a Federal UK/Britain, I personally believe is the people of England in a referendum, but there are some things we will "loose" if we go the whole independence route.

Naturally you may think this is worth sacrificing, but hopefullly these thoughts do add to the debate.

My personal driving factor for why we need a Federal UK policy is because I believe it is easier to explain in a non-extremist way.

However as I have said many times, policy is not as importat as marketing, image and name recognition.

KM

Richard the Lionheart · 30-04-2008, 05:00 AM

What Advantages would England have in a Federal Britain (with fiscal automony)

Well these are the ones I can think of.

Secure Northern Border
Secure Western Border
Secure Western Island (Ireland)
Common Defence Force
Common Network of Embassies

Advantages of an independent nation state

Full self-government
creation of thousands of jobs - MoD, with associated support services, DVLA, Royal Mint
Security issues settles by a Council of the Isles
Full English nationality
Out of the EU

The best people to decide on whether we should have an Independent England or England within a Federal UK/Britain - yes, so why did the EDP reject this proposal?

My personal driving factor for why we need a Federal UK policy is because I believe it is easier to explain in a non-extremist way.KM

Joe Public doesn't understand the mechanics of a federal UK, which would include the creation of yet more politicians, and that's hardly a vote winner.

Populist Lee · 30-04-2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentishman

A Federal UK/British Isles could include

England
Scotland
Wales
Ireland all or part

Isle of Man
Channel Islands
Gibralter
Cayman Islands

Plus other overseas Territories that I can't be bothered to look up at the moment.

================================================== ===============
What Advantages would England have in a Federal Britain (with fiscal automony)

Well these are the ones I can think of.

Secure Northern Border
Secure Western Border

Secure Western Island (Ireland)

===========================

Common Defence Force
Common Network of Embassies

===========================

The best people to decide on whether we should have an Independent England or England within a Federal UK/Britain, I personally believe is the people of England in a referendum, but there are some things we will "loose" if we go the whole independence route.

Naturally you may think this is worth sacrificing, but hopefullly these thoughts do add to the debate.

My personal driving factor for why we need a Federal UK policy is because I believe it is easier to explain in a non-extremist way.

However as I have said many times, policy is not as importat as marketing, image and name recognition.

KM

I can't argue with that.

Amazing!

Andrew Constantine · 30-04-2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentishman

However as I have said many times, policy is not as importat as marketing, image and name recognition.

KM

I certainly disagree with the last comment. When the Free England Party or UKIP is to have a proper crack at a general election, it will need to match the big two parties:

They usually spend up to £20 million each
They have some credible national figures
They have a professional head office function with full time staff
They have a candidate for each constituency
They have national networks of councillors and activists
They have alliances with interest groups
They should have a platform and measures that give millions reasons to vote for them
They should have a persuasive narrative - vote xyz because...
They still need access and influence with the media, especially the BBC

I think there may be some short cuts to the above, such as:

The existence of an issue which is seen as so key that tribal voting habits are secondary;
An Alliance of parties that overides sectional or party interests might be very powerful (i.e. it might be much more than the sum of the parts).

I sometimes wonder what would happen if UKIP took the lead in making such an alliance work. The obvious fulcrum would be the campaign for an English Parliament and nation, but UKIP is stuck in the 1950s on the state of the Union. And most of the time UKIP does not seem a very united and happy ship even on its own, which does not sound hopeful in the context of an Alliance!

So back to building up Free England from the ward upwards!

Westcountryman · 01-05-2008, 02:09 AM

Why would the IoM, Channel Islands, Gibraltar, Cayman Islands, Falklands etc want to be part of a Federal UK? I'm sure they're happy with the current arrangement, and besides, they'd probably want to remain independent of the EU too.

BonnieDundee · 01-05-2008, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard the Lionheart

Correction - England must have independence from the UK

Why would you call yourself Richard the Lionheart if you are such an English nationalist? The guy was Angevin French and spent less than a year in England.

BonnieDundee · 01-05-2008, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eurosceptic Atlanticist

Why would the IoM, Channel Islands, Gibraltar, Cayman Islands, Falklands etc want to be part of a Federal UK? I'm sure they're happy with the current arrangement, and besides, they'd probably want to remain independent of the EU too.

A federal UK wouldn't work unless you remove almost all power from the central gov't or regionalise the UK. England is simply too big, like Prussia in the German federation, and it would be an unsucessful federation.

cassie · 01-05-2008, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

A federal UK wouldn't work unless you remove almost all power from the central gov't or regionalise the UK. England is simply too big, like Prussia in the German federation, and it would be an unsuccessful federation.

I'm sick to death of reading "England is simply too big" - especially from Scots!

This is the shabby means whereby true democracy has been denied to the 38 million voters in England by the mean-minded, undemocratic, selfish 6 million voters in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales! Yes, we've all got to deal with each other on the basis of being equal nations except where England is concerned! Unfortunately, even UKIP has yet to realise the extent of this absurdity, but then, it has its share of anti-England members!

It could equally be said that "Scotland is simply too small" - and Wales and Northern Ireland!

In asserting that a federation won't work, you've made the case for dissolving the UK! Frankly, as an Englishman, I've no wish to remain within the current UK structure; it is either modified to give the English their due voice or broken up.

There's no one more British than a Scot living and working in England! However, in Scotland it's a different cup of tea.

____________________

Northumbrian · 01-05-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

A federal UK wouldn't work unless you remove almost all power from the central gov't or regionalise the UK. England is simply too big, like Prussia in the German federation, and it would be an unsucessful federation.

Fine. Independence it is, then.

29-04-2008, 10:58 PM	#22 (permalink)
Johnny Hates Jazz Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,944	A Federal UK/British Isles could include England Scotland Wales Ireland all or part Isle of Man Channel Islands Gibralter Cayman Islands Plus other overseas Territories that I can't be bothered to look up at the moment. ================================================== =============== What Advantages would England have in a Federal Britain (with fiscal automony) Well these are the ones I can think of. Secure Northern Border Secure Western Border Secure Western Island (Ireland) =========================== Common Defence Force Common Network of Embassies =========================== The best people to decide on whether we should have an Independent England or England within a Federal UK/Britain, I personally believe is the people of England in a referendum, but there are some things we will "loose" if we go the whole independence route. Naturally you may think this is worth sacrificing, but hopefullly these thoughts do add to the debate. My personal driving factor for why we need a Federal UK policy is because I believe it is easier to explain in a non-extremist way. However as I have said many times, policy is not as importat as marketing, image and name recognition. KM __________________ English or British or European ? *- It's time to decide at the 2009 European Elections*

30-04-2008, 05:00 AM	#23 (permalink)
Richard the Lionheart Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 601 Party: Free England Party	What Advantages would England have in a Federal Britain (with fiscal automony) Well these are the ones I can think of. Secure Northern Border Secure Western Border Secure Western Island (Ireland) Common Defence Force Common Network of Embassies Advantages of an independent nation state Full self-government creation of thousands of jobs - MoD, with associated support services, DVLA, Royal Mint Security issues settles by a Council of the Isles Full English nationality Out of the EU The best people to decide on whether we should have an Independent England or England within a Federal UK/Britain - yes, so why did the EDP reject this proposal? My personal driving factor for why we need a Federal UK policy is because I believe it is easier to explain in a non-extremist way.KM Joe Public doesn't understand the mechanics of a federal UK, which would include the creation of yet more politicians, and that's hardly a vote winner. __________________ The Free England Party - England's Premier Nationalist Party www.freeengland.com .....Serious about England

01-05-2008, 02:09 AM	#26 (permalink)
Westcountryman Uber Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Westcountry. Posts: 5,922 Party: None	Why would the IoM, Channel Islands, Gibraltar, Cayman Islands, Falklands etc want to be part of a Federal UK? I'm sure they're happy with the current arrangement, and besides, they'd probably want to remain independent of the EU too. __________________ Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietam - "This hand of mine, which is hostile to tyrants, seeks by the sword quiet peace under liberty."

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