Frith

I have just been back to take another look at the SNP web site, which I check now and then, but more often now because they are, in my opinion, the best example on the net of what a modern independence party motivated by an independence movement should look like in order to appeal to people living, not in the Middle Ages, but in 21st century Europe.

In short, their web site is terrific. And there is a reason for this. It directly appeals to the issues that affect people in Scotland living in the modern age and it is devoid of references to things that might divide Scots. Rather, it is filled with enthusiastic forward thinking and resolve and its patriotism flows from its evolution into a political drive to liberate its people from the setbacks of the past, remind them of their heritage, and set them on the path to the future that will bear the stamp "Made in Scotland".

How different this is from the repugnant in-fighting among the English. How refreshingly absent is the religious obsession that dogs the English. How liberating to see a country and people reaching for the stars without having their arms shackled to non-existent middle eastern saints killing legendary pagan dragons and how absolutely intoxicating to see no mention of those hideous crusades and that wretched church and state union and dreary narrow minded people banging on about how they are going to oppress women and attach themselves to The Eastern Orthodox Catholics through the bondage of the St George icon and an inveterate hatred of Islam.

The SNP web site is all about being Scots today and still being Scots tomorrow. If I were Scots I wouldn't hesitate to join up, or move back to Scotland. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if some of the English moved to Scotland instead of trying to continue to flog a very dead horse of English Nationalism when every move is countered with an insult or a religiously inspired message to go on a crusade. I cannot think of any worse image for a modern political movement than and ancient hate campaign against a foreign faith and country. It's a recipe for disaster, but no one will listen, so the Scots will gain independence before the English and the English nationalists, if they don't get their act together and join the modern independence movement, will end up absorbed as "regions" into the EU.

This from the SNP site is very compelling:

I couldn't agree more and if this is all the English could manage to agree on it would be better than trying to resurrect the crusaders (who were really French and Norman) or spend endless years fretting over whether or not the outdated and now thoroughly discredited church has any place in modern political enterprise.

St George's day, in a truly modern independent nation state, should become "England's Day." Young people would be far better able to identify with this as they are mostly totally unconnected to all the misery of the medieval past and don't want to be connected with it. The only successful alternative today has to be the liberated secular kind of scientifically oriented modern nationalism and nation promoted by the SNP. This doesn't mean ignoring or forgetting history, but humanity must move on, people have to evolve in a constantly evolving world and those who don't, won't or can't, will fail.

I think the hand offered by the SNP to England is a strong one and a sane one and should be grasped by anyone with more than one brain neuron firing. I used to be influenced by all the guff written and spoken about what a lot of traitors the SNP were and what a lot of lefties they were, etc, but I don't believe this because I have seen their web site and their progress and they are on a winning streak. I think the fault now lies with English nationalism and the English themselves that they seemingly cannot get along and prefer to waste time cutting each other to shreds, attacking their own activists and banging on about God and have largely lost sight of any kind of modern nation state (if they ever had any idea of one in the first place).

cassie

What hand? This is all just talk! Get real.


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Frith

Because I am a realist I have just "got real". I find it interesting that you haven't commented on the "realness" of the muddled English nationalism that has pervaded the air of sensibility for so long and still does so, through a plethora of increasingly oddball ideologies and connections.

To misquote Professor Higgins, "Why can't the English learn how to think?"

cassie

At the grave risk of offending, yet again, your preternaturally sensitive person, may I remind you that this thread - which YOU initiated - is about "The SNP as a modern independence party", and NOT English nationalism per se!

May I also point out that, true to form, you have avoided answering my very relevant question? All that is needed is for you to describe how the SNP actually 'offered a hand to England' other than one seeking to gain advantage for Scots? What tangible form did it take?

Perhaps your earlier answer will be repeated: or How can ANYONE take you at all seriously?



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Frith

The only people likely to take me seriously are intelligent people. I don't give a flying fandango for the rest, they will pour themselves into the stew pots of whatever appeals to their stupid greed and self-orientation.

If I ever seem to be "whimsical" as you put it, it is because I am forced to employ this as a foil to my intellect. Shakespeare even made it necessary for a king to engage in an antic disposition. It isn't the king's fault it is the fault of the stupid that they might behead the wrong victim if someone simply shouts "Off with his head!" Oh, now that reminds me of one of English literature's most intelligent satirists, who gave this unpleasant and rather scary propensity to the Queen of Hearts. Carroll being not a writer but a logician and mathematician in his other life.

There comes a time when any concealed sun has to shine, slip out from behind its cloud to shed just a little light to prevent banality from taking hold and subverting the intentions of good men and women. Did Burke not say that the reason evil succeeds is because good men do nothing? Indeed he did and the same can be said of intelligent men, or women then they are permitted to exist. Stupidity prevails when intelligent men do nothing.

Your persistent, and amusing, efforts to portray me as weak minded, idiotic, simplistic, devious and negative betray something not in me but in you. What that something is is beyond my interest. I simply don't care.

The reason why I started a thread named the SNP as a modern independence party over here on the English thread is because that is what the SNP now is and I mentioned their overtures to other like minded groups as an important step to gaining strength in this regard. This won't appeal to you, obviously, but it will appeal to a lot of other nationalist groups who do not wish to sever their ties of friendship, kinship, security and trade simply because they have declared their independence.

As the SNP are well on their way to achieving status as credible Scots nationalists, I think their model deserves scrutiny. If there had been a Free England Party forum I would have put my post there. I apologise to the EDs that it is on their forum. This is where discussions about English Independence have tended to take place thus far. Any moderator is free, obviously, to move my post wherever he wishes, or even delete it.

I'm not interested in going into mindless diatribe with you cassie, I've allowed far too much of that already. When I said goodbye to all that I meant it. Just give some thought to the dangers inherent in presuming too much, or presuming anything at all, about someone you don't know from Adam but about whom you have copious quantities of highly inflammatory disinformation. It really isn't necessary to keep trying to convince everyone Frith is a lunatic. It is Frith you really need to convince as the others do not know me any better than you do. Frith is not Frith to start with and isn't going to take your word for an analysis of her capability. She already exists in her own right as someone else and is only here to do something positive if that is possible. As it isn't most of the time, "Frith" thought that a comparison between a successful modern nationalist party that happens to be Scots would be a good idea. They could just as easily have been the Martian liberation front party. It is the concept of a free modern nation state that interests me, not how many rabid Scots haters anyone can recruit.

I hope others will contribute to this thread and this can produce positive debate on the independence issue and that the SNP can be compared with new models for English independence to see where there may be similarities or necessary differences. And where there may be potential for collaboration.

cassie

What hand? This is all just talk! Get real and answer the question.

You cannot and, like the rest of your post, the fictitious hand is merely a pretext to have a pop at English nationalism without proposing anything remotely practical.

The SNP have failed to respond in any way to tentative approaches made to them! What do you know in South Africa? Nothing!

You'd do better to get your republic's president to start behaving like a decent human being and to lean on that racist gangster [black smudge on the map?] Mugabe!



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Frith

I'm still hoping someone with just a smidgen of intelligence will answer my original post. People like you, cassie, tend to put the English off their own kind and no doubt confirm certain beliefs in the minds of others, which cannot be a good thing under the circumstances.

I'm amused that you think SA is "my" republic and that the dear President would allow me in any way to lean on him. How quaint you are, but then what would you, in Britain, know (if I may use the same words you used on me).

Incidentally, referring to him as a "black smudge" is as racist as referring to Scots in anti-ethnic terms. This is what the new nation states are trying to get away from, I would presume, and I see that the new Scotland is moving rapidly away from this. Good for them. Not so stupid efter 'a, eh?

cassie

What do you know? Very little! You do not live amongst us and yet in your supreme ignorance presume to pronounce upon us and our affairs. Confidence of my own ability to comprehend, your silly innuendos such as "a smidgen of intelligence" cut no ice with me or, indeed, anyone with intellect. The fact is that you have nothing of any practical value to say!

I'm glad that you're only amused at having a racist president deaf to the voices of his white citizens! Frankly, I feel much stronger about our unrepresentative, anti-English prime minister! You may deem it quaint that I suggest you'd be better employed seeking to influence Mbeki, but the point I was making is that you have even less chance of influencing anyone here!

Incidentally, Mugabe referred to Brown as 'a black dot on the map'. For your information, 'black smudge' is no more racist in England than 'black dot on the map'! Clearly, you do not know what is the legal definition of racist! Perhaps the mere use of the word 'black' in connection with someone who is black IS racist in South Africa?

You might also care to get your eyes checked ~ Scotland is where it has always been! Are you on LSD or something?


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BonnieDundee

I think by hand he was refering to an example for the English.

__________________
"It is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday facilitate a police state."
-Bruce Schneier

How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your TV; build your own cabin and p*ss off front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.
Edward Abbey

Leopold Kohr.

BonnieDundee

I thought your post was well thought out Frith and certainly did not deserve that treatment. It is not something I can really answer however.

__________________
"It is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday facilitate a police state."
-Bruce Schneier

How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your TV; build your own cabin and p*ss off front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.
Edward Abbey

Leopold Kohr.