cassie

By glossing over the practicalities you make it seem so easy and automatic!

Referenda are merely a means of ascertaining collective opinion. The results would need to be assessed taking account of the majority in relation to turnout. Then, both the Commons and Lords would need to pass effecting legislation.

Who is to predict, with accuracy, the composition of the Commons authorising such referenda? The composition is crucial!

Currently, we have a government with a majority Wilson, Callaghan, Heath and Major could only have dreamt of from 1964-79, and 1992-97! Despite this, the Brown Government is by no means certain of effecting the measures (eg 'Detention without Trial' periods) which it wants. I leave aside the reaction of the Lords.

However, dear old Northumbrian sweeps all these considerations aside with the remark: "Following a positive result in an English independence referendum, the non-English MPs would be dismissed from Westminster"! Yeah, I suppose they're gonna sit on their hands and ALL those MPs in seats in England - and later, all those peers - are going to vote exactly as Northumbrian says! Was that a pig I just saw fly past my window?


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Andrew Constantine

Northumbrian

The UK state is bankrupt, in my view, both morally and financially. Think of the unfunded government pension liabilities which some say are heading for £1 trillion.

But the real issue is what price national independence? I would prefer to see a poorer Independent and free England rather than the status quo.

In fact, I think an Independent England which kept its nose out of other states' affairs and was not the US State Department's poodle might be more prosperous.

However, on the dissolution of the Union, I can see the Welsh and NI saying "Can't pay - won't pay" and I would expect some some hard bargaining and adult conversations with Scotland.

Regards, Andrew

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Andrew Constantine says: The EU is a French-German racket and is incompatible with democracy. An independent England will quit the EU forthwith.

Free England Party - Independence for England
http://www.freeengland.com

Signatory to The English Claim of Right
http://englishclaimofright.com

Andrew Constantine

If I could foretell the future, I would be out buying lottery tickets!

The fact is though that there have been a number of break-ups of federal states in the past 10 years, even in Europe. There have been civilised divorces (Czechs versus Slovaks) and there have been nasty wars (Serbs versus the rest).


If I had to bet, I think the SNP will take Scotland out of the Union and within say 5 years. There should (I am expecting to see this) be real evidence of the pace of dissolution apparent within the next two years.

Regards, Andrew

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Andrew Constantine says: The EU is a French-German racket and is incompatible with democracy. An independent England will quit the EU forthwith.

Free England Party - Independence for England
http://www.freeengland.com

Signatory to The English Claim of Right
http://englishclaimofright.com

Englander 1

My answer to this question is YES....I Thank-You!

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"There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other.
That word is ENGLAND." - Sir Winston Churchill

Northumbrian

So you've admitted only the British parliament has the power to sanction a referendum? That's good. An English or a Scottish Parliament can't do that.
And chances are the British Parliament would have a say in the division of assets. That's also good, because 80% of the MPs are English based.

So to say we need an English parliament for the division of assets is a bit melodramatic, when there's not much difference between an English and British Parliament.

Now that may explain why the EDP doesn't do well. If there's not much difference between the British and the hypothetical English parliament, why bother?

But of course, we all know too well, there is a massive difference between the prospect of English nationality compared to British nationality. Interesting.

Britannist

Yes, I know.

I want England to have equality with Scotland within the UK as I have pointed out many times in other threads.

You refer to "the three nations" - officially Wales and Northern Ireland are (respectively) a Principality and a Province, of course.

cassie

For the record, I haven't just 'admitted' that the British Parliament has the power, I've been saying so for months! It's folk like you who keep commenting as though holding a referendum and taking any consequent executive action are one and the same! Just read your own words!

You make the facile remark that: "Following a positive result in an English independence referendum, the non-English MPs would be dismissed from Westminster, thus creating an English Parliament." and when I attempt to take you through the practicalities - none of which you'd mentioned - you shift ground, and start to pronounce on the various factors as though you are some kind of sage.

You then compound your superficial approach with the silly statement: "to say we need an English parliament for the division of assets is a bit melodramatic, when there's not much difference between an English and British Parliament." You should know that an English Parliament would have a much wider role than that! Your suggestion that: "there's not much difference between an English and British Parliament." merely goes to show the paucity of your comprehension.

Are you really suggesting that 'there's not much difference between the Scottish and British Parliaments?' or 'between the Welsh Assembly and the British Parliament'? If not, why should there be no difference between an English Parliament and the British Parliament? You are making this massive assumption purely for the sake of debate, which must call into question your whole position if it relies upon this kind of make believe!

Then you make the petty and unnecessary remark about that explaining "why the EDP doesn't do well" as though the FEP has a significant track record of electoral achievement behind it. Here, you qualify it with 'if' - 'If there's not much difference between the British and the hypothetical English parliament". Well be in no doubt, there most probably will be!

As for your facetious comment about there being "a massive difference between the prospect of English nationality compared to British nationality" - I would say, if you want your observations to be taken seriously, you had better give them more consideration. I regard your post as being rather silly and, as such, unlikely to persuade anyone to accept your point of view.


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Frith

You can foretell the future then. Me too, that is why some of us are the way we are and others are the way they are. And Serbia is getting feistier not more complacent (Russia too), so the urge to independence isn't fading and even vicious warfare and foreign interference can't put out of the light of freedom. It's a question of how far outside the box anyone is willing to think or see.

The average small brained human usually doesn't evolve because it can't adapt and it can't adapt because it refuses to acknowledge gigantic elephants in the room. Keeps thinking they're just very big ants. They're not. The BNP has been a significant elephant in the room for at least six years and has developed from neo nazi crackpot skinhead SS cult to fledgling modern nationalist entity. The splits are a sign that even more change is likely and non of this will mean much until Scotland achieves its goal and others will have to wake up and take notice. The Tories needn't think they are safe by getting in again as they are split as badly as the BNP into various factions wanting various things.

Whole new ideologies are competing for political space, new generations are emerging whose ideas are tied intimately to global networking and shared code, so there is little hope for the kind of political dinosaurs that once (dis)graced any country. Even Africa's post colonial states are in upheaval. Change and even revolutionary change are part and parcel of the future and the future will be very different from the past in some ways but quite similar to the present in others. Canny aspirant politicians will snatch this opportunity to latch onto new energy sources in terms of what electorates want or need.

The SNP has designed a nifty little party that has customisation written all over it and will no doubt make adjustments as it progresses, and be willing to make them. This is possibly the secret of their success. Democratic as well as focused on a theme. Clever, canny, Scots. No one has seen the Scots take the high road before, they are accustomed to making fun of the "Jocks" and believing they are too small to make it alone. But think of their history and the kind of battles they fought and the way they had to survive to get where they are today and you will know that the Scots are capable of a lot more than just a nice little liberal democratic party that wants to be free of the Sassenach.

I hoped the English would be like the Scots and want to do the same for the kind of people who underwent the utterly gruelling history of conquest and struggle that brought them to nation status and to an Empire that spanned the globe. I hoped this capability to do great things would translate itself into an English nationalism that could live alongside similar aspirations in Welsh and Scot.

All they are doing is bitching. How the mighty have fallen. And what a disappointment many of them are. Still, I suppose one must live in hope. And Andrew is correct in that once the Scots manage it, there will be little point in standing around creating hot air when the balloon has burst. Then they'll need wings. But will they remember how to fly?

Rye Spangle

Is there a need for a party that promotes an English Parliament? Yes!

Is there a need for a party that exists purley to hate the Scottish? NO!

Richard the Lionheart

In response to the original question, if one of the big three parties adopt anything like a fair system of government in the UK, the major reason for the EDP's existence, along with the CEP's, will be gone. I am also prepared to wager that if the Tories ever moved to a federal UK policy, the EDP leader Robin Tilbrook would jump ship immediately.

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