is there a need for the EDP ?

Danny · 13-04-2008, 11:44 PM

Interesting thread title.May the 2nd when the votes are counted will confirm there ISNT AN EDP.

Richard the Lionheart · 14-04-2008, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Britannist

Now that devolution has taken place I want equal status for England with the devolved parts of the UK.

The three nations who have devolution have different powers.

cassie · 14-04-2008, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ukiprule

Although UKIP is strongly opposed to the centralization of power and political union in Europe, it is a strong supporter of both centralization of power and political union in the UK. Arguing that, within the UK itself, all political power should reside in Westminster.

UKIP therefore both opposes the notion of a devolved English parliament and argues that the Scottish Parliament and Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies should be abolished, with all parliamentary powers returning to Westminster.

Without such abolition, UKIP argues that England should be treated on the same basis as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland with English constituency MPs sitting in Westminster 10 days a month to debate matters similarly reserved to the Scottish Parliament and Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies, such as health, education and transport. UKIP believes Scottish MSPs and Welsh and Northern Irish AMs should be abolished. Their role should be performed by the elected Westminster MPs who would return to sit in their respective devolved legislatures for the 10 days per month that English MPs would debate English matters at Westminster. (The devolved legislatures currently sit only 10 days a month as it is).

You can turn this facile logic on its head and ask whether there is any need for UKIP!

_

ANGLO-STAFFS · 14-04-2008, 09:05 AM

[quote=ukiprule;486851]
Although UKIP is strongly opposed to the centralization of power and political union in Europe, it is a strong supporter of both centralization of power and political union in the UK. Arguing that, within the UK itself, all political power should reside in Westminster.

UKIP therefore both opposes the notion of a devolved English parliament and argues that the Scottish Parliament and Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies should be abolished, with all parliamentary powers returning to Westminster.
QUOTE]

Read the above then ask the question.
Is this why is the ENGLISH party currently called UKIP is totally irrelevant in Irish, Welsh and Scottish politics?

What is UKIP's recent vote %age in the non-English by-elections?
How many MEP's, MP's, MSP's AM's, County, District or even Parish councillors have been elected under the UKIP banner in Ulster, Wales or Scotland?

I think you could count them on the fingers of one foot.

cassie · 14-04-2008, 09:42 AM

[quote=ANGLO-STAFFS;487050]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ukiprule

Although UKIP is strongly opposed to the centralization of power and political union in Europe, it is a strong supporter of both centralization of power and political union in the UK. Arguing that, within the UK itself, all political power should reside in Westminster.

UKIP therefore both opposes the notion of a devolved English parliament and argues that the Scottish Parliament and Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies should be abolished, with all parliamentary powers returning to Westminster.
QUOTE]

Read the above then ask the question.
Is this why is the ENGLISH party currently called UKIP is totally irrelevant in Irish, Welsh and Scottish politics?

What is UKIP's recent vote %age in the non-English by-elections?
How many MEP's, MP's, MSP's AM's, County, District or even Parish councillors have been elected under the UKIP banner in Ulster, Wales or Scotland?

I think you could count them on the fingers of one foot.

That's what I meant, even if you think that's not what I said!

What is the point of a policy - however logical and desirable - if it does not command widespread support?

I do recommend that UKIP goes back to the drawing board!

_

arden forester · 14-04-2008, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ukiprule

Without such abolition, UKIP argues that England should be treated on the same basis as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland with English constituency MPs sitting in Westminster 10 days a month to debate matters similarly reserved to the Scottish Parliament and Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies, such as health, education and transport. UKIP believes Scottish MSPs and Welsh and Northern Irish AMs should be abolished. Their role should be performed by the elected Westminster MPs who would return to sit in their respective devolved legislatures for the 10 days per month that English MPs would debate English matters at Westminster. (The devolved legislatures currently sit only 10 days a month as it is).

This is pie-in-the-sky. It's one of the reasons I couldn't commit to UKIP. Once a political genie like this has come out of the bottle, you'd need Hercules and all akin to him to try to ram it back in!

Reality Test No.1. The devolved parliaments ARE NOT going to be dissolved.
Reality Test No.2. Even the Tories in Scotland are now signed up!
Reality Test No.3. England should have parity, not charity!

To suggest a committee sitting as a Grand Committee or whatever still creates second or third class MPs. It would be unworkable. It's bad enough having the pigs ear of a constitutional settlement we have now. A second helping of this **** won't help one bit!

If we want to keep the UK then it is a federal system only. No mixed rep parliaments, no mixed policies and powers. I would have preferred to keep the Union more or less as it was, but that isn't to be. However, we should make sure that the devolved institutions are not run on two sets of elections. It is a nonsense to have constituency members and list members in the same house. Either we have constituencies with elected members getting 50% plus (with second preference votes being distributed) or we have a proportional system of multi-member constituencies WITH NO CLOSED LISTS!). I'm for fairness, not spin and deception, leading to inequality.

If you want to abolish the devolved assemblies, then expect a fight from the Nats and their ilk. My hope is that we can move forward, not go back to some fantasy world!

cassie · 14-04-2008, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arden forester

This is pie-in-the-sky. It's one of the reasons I couldn't commit to UKIP. Once a political genie like this has come out of the bottle, you'd need Hercules and all akin to him to try to ram it back in!

Reality Test No.1. The devolved parliaments ARE NOT going to be dissolved.
Reality Test No.2. Even the Tories in Scotland are now signed up!
Reality Test No.3. England should have parity, not charity!

To suggest a committee sitting as a Grand Committee or whatever still creates second or third class MPs. It would be unworkable. It's bad enough having the pigs ear of a constitutional settlement we have now. A second helping of this **** won't help one bit!

If we want to keep the UK then it is a federal system only. No mixed rep parliaments, no mixed policies and powers. I would have preferred to keep the Union more or less as it was, but that isn't to be. However, we should make sure that the devolved institutions are not run on two sets of elections. It is a nonsense to have constituency members and list members in the same house. Either we have constituencies with elected members getting 50% plus (with second preference votes being distributed) or we have a proportional system of multi-member constituencies WITH NO CLOSED LISTS!). I'm for fairness, not spin and deception, leading to inequality.

If you want to abolish the devolved assemblies, then expect a fight from the Nats and their ilk. My hope is that we can move forward, not go back to some fantasy world!

Yes, I broadly agree with this Arden!

As I have said before, if UKIP adopted a policy of establishing a separate parliament for England I would apply for membership! I support UKIP's policy of giving voters the opportunity of leaving the EU.

__

Andrew Constantine · 14-04-2008, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arden forester

If we want to keep the UK then it is a federal system only. No mixed rep parliaments, no mixed policies and powers. I would have preferred to keep the Union more or less as it was, but that isn't to be.

arden forester

I used to disagree strongly when some used to criticise the EDs on the grounds that the setting up an English Parliament would mean the end of the UK. I did deny it then, and the EDs continue to deny it.

I actually now think that this view of the dissolution of the UK happening when England gets her Parliament is more likely to be correct.

The preponderance of England in the Union - assming that England is correctly treated as a single nation - means that we would usually wish to disregard the wishes of the smaller home nations. If the Union or federal Parliament was not dominated by the English, why should we suffer the other small home nations helping to order us about? Majority rule and all that!

So realistically if we accept that the other home nations will not give up their Parliaments or Assembly, then in my view we are heading for the break up of the Union and the revival of the English nation state.

I think this scenario is good news for England - I accept that others (the EU, the Northern Irish etc) who will lose out, may not like the sound of it. That's their lookout.

cassie · 14-04-2008, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Constantine

arden forester

I used to disagree strongly when some used to criticise the EDs on the grounds that the setting up an English Parliament would mean the end of the UK. I did deny it then, and the EDs continue to deny it.

I actually now think that this view of the dissolution of the UK happening when England gets her Parliament is more likely to be correct.

The preponderance of England in the Union - assming that England is correctly treated as a single nation - means that we would usually wish to disregard the wishes of the smaller home nations. If the Union or federal Parliament was not dominated by the English, why should we suffer the other small home nations helping to order us about? Majority rule and all that!

So realistically if we accept that the other home nations will not give up their Parliaments or Assembly, then in my view we are heading for the break up of the Union and the revival of the English nation state.

I think this scenario is good news for England - I accept that others (the EU, the Northern Irish etc) who will lose out, may not like the sound of it. That's their lookout.

One of the problems with your scenario Andrew is that it seems to take no (or insufficient) account of the circumstances in which either a federal UK is negotiated or it is dissolved. In both events, the interests of England and her people need to be properly safeguarded. Who is to do that?

Hopefully, a separate English Parliament will be very much more representative of the English than the current British Parliament and, prior to either of the above events, a British Parliament will be in the driving seat accompanied by Scots, Welsh and N Irish MPs. The latter will have their respective governing bodies to safeguard THEIR respective interests but, as at present, England and the English will not have their separate organisation but be subject to the interference of others with different agendas.

Whatever the future holds for England and the UK, it seems extremely unwise to treat the options as other than being in two stages! Of course radical changes in opinion in England reflected in the ballot box may make your preferred course feasible, but I would not bank on it!

As a small example, just remember the £53 billion (yes, that's £53,000 million!) given to the 1.7 million people of Northern Ireland by the Scots running the British Government! How much more of Britain's [ie England's] assets would they help themselves to given the opportunity in any dissolution process? These people have just placed a £232 tax burden on low income people in Britain, the vast majority of whom are in England - but for the want of increasing Personal Allowances by just £1,160 as an off-set!

_

Northumbrian · 14-04-2008, 05:28 PM

Following a positive result in an English independence referendum, the non-English MPs would be dismissed from Westminster, thus creating an English Parliament.

Once Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland decide on their statehood, then division of the Union assets can begin. This could well be several months later.

We do not need an English parliament prior to independence.

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13-04-2008, 11:44 PM	#11 (permalink)
Danny Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 700	Interesting thread title.May the 2nd when the votes are counted will confirm there ISNT AN EDP.

14-04-2008, 09:05 AM	#14 (permalink)
ANGLO-STAFFS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 607	[quote=ukiprule;486851] Although UKIP is strongly opposed to the centralization of power and political union in Europe, it is a strong supporter of both centralization of power and political union in the UK. Arguing that, within the UK itself, all political power should reside in Westminster. UKIP therefore both opposes the notion of a devolved English parliament and argues that the Scottish Parliament and Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies should be abolished, with all parliamentary powers returning to Westminster. QUOTE] Read the above then ask the question. Is this why is the ENGLISH party currently called UKIP is totally irrelevant in Irish, Welsh and Scottish politics? What is UKIP's recent vote %age in the non-English by-elections? How many MEP's, MP's, MSP's AM's, County, District or even Parish councillors have been elected under the UKIP banner in Ulster, Wales or Scotland? I think you could count them on the fingers of one foot.

14-04-2008, 05:28 PM	#20 (permalink)
Northumbrian Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, England Posts: 1,161 Party: Free England Party	Following a positive result in an English independence referendum, the non-English MPs would be dismissed from Westminster, thus creating an English Parliament. Once Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland decide on their statehood, then division of the Union assets can begin. This could well be several months later. We do not need an English parliament prior to independence.