The way forward

Frith · 21-03-2008, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cassie

I see you're 'off on one' again, as we might say here! You seem to be a very unstable person to me. Keep taking the beta blockers!

You may say it's 'helping' but I say it's unhelpfully interfering!

Will this provoke yet another interminable and prolix post, I ask?

__

No, you've made yourself quite clear.

Ea of Dune · 21-03-2008, 03:32 PM

Before the thread goes off track I'm going to throw in my 2p.

I know a few of you will disagree with this but fair enough

.

I think the situation with the FEP splitting from the EDP was a real shame. I can thoroughly understand why RTL, Andrew etc. are pro-Independence, I am also in that camp. I can understand why they where probably frustrated that the leadership within the EDP did not support the amending of the manifesto to call for a referendum on English independence.
However I think leaving the party was probably a little premature. If it had been me I would have formed a club within the party that was made up of the pro-Independence lobby and worked to win the support of the party over, work out post Independence policies etc. and have these ready for such a time as when the party has enough members who vote through the proposal to back an independence referendum.
This way one cohesive party would exist, admittedly with different factions, although I personally don't see this as a problem, I see it as being a democratic institution. If I where part of said party I would have joined RTL and Andrews faction within it, but it wouldn't have stopped me standing shoulder to shoulder with say Kentishman for example.
I would have then worked with the rest of the party on getting an English parliament first and addressing the issues we can actually change.

With one cohesive party I'd be out there winning over the votes and membership of the man on the street who feels totally alienated. I' be forming an anti-EU coalition with UKIP, and offer a potential home for UKIPers who have decided the Union is dead when Scotland and Wales push for EU membership (which I believe they will do).

Ea of dune

cassie · 21-03-2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ea of Dune

Before the thread goes off track I'm going to throw in my 2p.

I know a few of you will disagree with this but fair enough

.

I think the situation with the FEP splitting from the EDP was a real shame. I can thoroughly understand why RTL, Andrew etc. are pro-Independence, I am also in that camp. I can understand why they where probably frustrated that the leadership within the EDP did not support the amending of the manifesto to call for a referendum on English independence.
However I think leaving the party was probably a little premature. If it had been me I would have formed a club within the party that was made up of the pro-Independence lobby and worked to win the support of the party over, work out post Independence policies etc. and have these ready for such a time as when the party has enough members who vote through the proposal to back an independence referendum.
This way one cohesive party would exist, admittedly with different factions, although I personally don't see this as a problem, I see it as being a democratic institution. If I where part of said party I would have joined RTL and Andrews faction within it, but it wouldn't have stopped me standing shoulder to shoulder with say Kentishman for example.

I would have then worked with the rest of the party on getting an English parliament first and addressing the issues we can actually change.

With one cohesive party I'd be out there winning over the votes and membership of the man on the street who feels totally alienated. I' be forming an anti-EU coalition with UKIP, and offer a potential home for UKIPers who have decided the Union is dead when Scotland and Wales push for EU membership (which I believe they will do).

Ea of dune

Both sides of the independence debate could still unite behind initiatives which they both agree about. Indeed, earlier I suggested:

The initiative I have in mind for BOTH sides of the independence issue (or any other issue for that matter!) is to demand that voters in England should be able to participate in ANY referenda about the status of any part of the UK.

It is simply not acceptable that referenda should be held in which (for example) solely the voters in Scotland take part. 84% of the UK's voters are in England and we have been sidelined since 1975!

So, all is not necessarily lost!

___________________

Danny · 21-03-2008, 05:29 PM

Cassie says all it not lost QUOTE

It will be if hes involved given his history in EDP and history of falling out with people on here.

Richard the Lionheart · 21-03-2008, 05:44 PM

A good post EA.

The problems from my part ran deeper than just a difference in ideology, but that's another story.

I still do not believe an EP within a federal England is achievable. As I have stated elsewhere on the board, the makeup of Westminster would have to be changed to members that supported an EP. The overwhelming majority at present do not support the creation of such an institution, and there lies the problem. How is any party going to get enough people elected to parliament to get a referendum for an English parliament on the agenda? How is enough pressure going to be put on either Labour or the Tories to adopt an EP as policy? The Tories would be in the best position to do this, yet their solution is either EVELs, or an English Grand Committee. And you can bet your life that if they get enough people elected in the next general election, the issue will be quietly brushed under the carpet.

That is the reality of the problem.

In the meantime, Scotland is moving further and further away from the British state as is Wales. What has to be considered is, which will come first: a federal UK or the breakup of the union? It's my view that the latter will happen.

Andrew Constantine · 21-03-2008, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ea of Dune

I think the situation with the FEP splitting from the EDP was a real shame. I can thoroughly understand why RTL, Andrew etc. are pro-Independence, I am also in that camp. I can understand why they where probably frustrated that the leadership within the EDP did not support the amending of the manifesto to call for a referendum on English independence.

However I think leaving the party was probably a little premature. If it had been me I would have formed a club within the party that was made up of the pro-Independence lobby and worked to win the support of the party over, work out post Independence policies etc. and have these ready for such a time as when the party has enough members who vote through the proposal to back an independence referendum.

This way one cohesive party would exist, admittedly with different factions, although I personally don't see this as a problem, I see it as being a democratic institution. If I where part of said party I would have joined RTL and Andrews faction within it, but it wouldn't have stopped me standing shoulder to shoulder with say Kentishman for example.

I would have then worked with the rest of the party on getting an English parliament first and addressing the issues we can actually change.

With one cohesive party I'd be out there winning over the votes and membership of the man on the street who feels totally alienated. I' be forming an anti-EU coalition with UKIP, and offer a potential home for UKIPers who have decided the Union is dead when Scotland and Wales push for EU membership (which I believe they will do).

Ea of dune

Ea of dune

I like your posts too much not to intervene on the above.

The reason why most of us left the EDs was not because of their policy position on independence at all, but because most of us had lost faith in the decency of too many of their senior members.

If you cannot even trust all your fellow (equally unpaid and hardworking) party volunteers, and are stabbed in the back by some you thought you trusted, and lied to in your face by others, and have your confidential emails copied to all and sundry etc, you wonder what on earth you are doing with such a bunch of f-ckwits.

It was only after I left the EDs and was contacted by a number of independence patriots that I started to think more deeply about the benefits to England of gaining national independence and the power and simplicity of that call to the guy on the Clapham omnibus ... it was then that I realised that the EDs were barking ... and up the wrong tree.

I hope I am not prejudiced by my personal experiences of the EDs. There are some admirable senior EDs who we would love to have on board (David Lane, Fred Bishop, Brian Lee, Mike Blundell, Michael Cassidy, Nick Capp, Steve Garrett etc) - one day they might join us in Free England too!

England For Ever · 22-03-2008, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Englishman

Myself, and I hope others within the English movement especialy the EDP will now pledge as I do,
to do my utmost to cut the squabling and for us to try our best to focus on our own projects and just get on with saving England.

Yes express our views of where we dissagree by all means as usual,
but please end critisism with some fairness and maybe comments such as
'I hope you prove me wrong' etc etc

Lets not let our frustrations of how our backs are against the wall, get the better of us and rip us apart.

Lets keep this English movement moving even faster now, from all areas of our movement which is gaining momentum by the day.

Unite and win!

Are you involved in the "English Movement" run by Wolf from Woden's folk? I only ask as I got one of their badges - and they are very good!

Frith · 23-03-2008, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by England For Ever

Are you involved in the "English Movement" run by Wolf from Woden's folk? I only ask as I got one of their badges - and they are very good!

Their loyalty to England is unquestionable and their dedication likewise.

crac · 25-03-2008, 05:02 PM

Musing on the problem of the interminable splintering nature of all English groups, which always tends to happen unless they agree to some sort of low grade philosophy such as the labour party which mostly panders to everyones emotion about everything and certainly not to any kind of clarity about English issues .
A substantial amount of people will always like that because it's so easy and you don't have to take any hard decisions or think about anything.
It's the way of the most ignorant and lazy majority.

But back to something better, how about a symbol, from history which unites everyone on the true nature and importance of our shared history and culture.

And before anyone gets worried, remember that there is nothing wrong with being English. There is nothing wrong with significant English religious or cultural symbols, depending on what they are, or what they mean. also if this causes references to Nazi swasticas or something then i must say that i'm totally against any kind of repressive regime.

But we are emotional as well as intelectual so this is a natural need to have symbols that draw us all together.

crac · 01-04-2008, 11:10 AM

What i mean is that unless you have a strong central binding symbol which contains more than just intelectual meaning then all you get is argument and difference of opinion.
Thats fair enough there are lots of different ways to look at things but you can see how that leads to splits as different groupings try to make their own unique contribution.
And of course English people always compete with each other and square off in small numbers to fight their battles of honour.
This is our history.
So the crown symbol helps because it says all those competing factions are united under the love of the mystery of the land itself and how it makes us the way we are and how we are loyal to the way we are. through that symbol.
I think thats trhe best way to put it rather than to any person exactly.

21-03-2008, 03:32 PM	#42 (permalink)
Ea of Dune Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Hell Posts: 1,049	my thoughts Before the thread goes off track I'm going to throw in my 2p. I know a few of you will disagree with this but fair enough . I think the situation with the FEP splitting from the EDP was a real shame. I can thoroughly understand why RTL, Andrew etc. are pro-Independence, I am also in that camp. I can understand why they where probably frustrated that the leadership within the EDP did not support the amending of the manifesto to call for a referendum on English independence. However I think leaving the party was probably a little premature. If it had been me I would have formed a club within the party that was made up of the pro-Independence lobby and worked to win the support of the party over, work out post Independence policies etc. and have these ready for such a time as when the party has enough members who vote through the proposal to back an independence referendum. This way one cohesive party would exist, admittedly with different factions, although I personally don't see this as a problem, I see it as being a democratic institution. If I where part of said party I would have joined RTL and Andrews faction within it, but it wouldn't have stopped me standing shoulder to shoulder with say Kentishman for example. I would have then worked with the rest of the party on getting an English parliament first and addressing the issues we can actually change. With one cohesive party I'd be out there winning over the votes and membership of the man on the street who feels totally alienated. I' be forming an anti-EU coalition with UKIP, and offer a potential home for UKIPers who have decided the Union is dead when Scotland and Wales push for EU membership (which I believe they will do). Ea of dune

21-03-2008, 05:44 PM	#45 (permalink)
Richard the Lionheart Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 597 Party: Free England Party	A good post EA. The problems from my part ran deeper than just a difference in ideology, but that's another story. I still do not believe an EP within a federal England is achievable. As I have stated elsewhere on the board, the makeup of Westminster would have to be changed to members that supported an EP. The overwhelming majority at present do not support the creation of such an institution, and there lies the problem. How is any party going to get enough people elected to parliament to get a referendum for an English parliament on the agenda? How is enough pressure going to be put on either Labour or the Tories to adopt an EP as policy? The Tories would be in the best position to do this, yet their solution is either EVELs, or an English Grand Committee. And you can bet your life that if they get enough people elected in the next general election, the issue will be quietly brushed under the carpet. That is the reality of the problem. In the meantime, Scotland is moving further and further away from the British state as is Wales. What has to be considered is, which will come first: a federal UK or the breakup of the union? It's my view that the latter will happen. __________________ The Free England Party - England's Premier Nationalist Party www.freeengland.com .....Serious about England

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21-03-2008, 05:29 PM	#44 (permalink)
Danny Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 700	Cassie says all it not lost QUOTE It will be if hes involved given his history in EDP and history of falling out with people on here.

25-03-2008, 05:02 PM	#49 (permalink)
crac Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 126	Musing on the problem of the interminable splintering nature of all English groups, which always tends to happen unless they agree to some sort of low grade philosophy such as the labour party which mostly panders to everyones emotion about everything and certainly not to any kind of clarity about English issues . A substantial amount of people will always like that because it's so easy and you don't have to take any hard decisions or think about anything. It's the way of the most ignorant and lazy majority. But back to something better, how about a symbol, from history which unites everyone on the true nature and importance of our shared history and culture. And before anyone gets worried, remember that there is nothing wrong with being English. There is nothing wrong with significant English religious or cultural symbols, depending on what they are, or what they mean. also if this causes references to Nazi swasticas or something then i must say that i'm totally against any kind of repressive regime. But we are emotional as well as intelectual so this is a natural need to have symbols that draw us all together.

01-04-2008, 11:10 AM	#50 (permalink)
crac Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 126	What i mean is that unless you have a strong central binding symbol which contains more than just intelectual meaning then all you get is argument and difference of opinion. Thats fair enough there are lots of different ways to look at things but you can see how that leads to splits as different groupings try to make their own unique contribution. And of course English people always compete with each other and square off in small numbers to fight their battles of honour. This is our history. So the crown symbol helps because it says all those competing factions are united under the love of the mystery of the land itself and how it makes us the way we are and how we are loyal to the way we are. through that symbol. I think thats trhe best way to put it rather than to any person exactly.