Frith

Yes, getting shot of the EU is paramount.

I think, based on what I've gleaned by personal observation and general experience over a number of years, that each little furious split off entity has at its root some highly significant issue that is not being addressed, or some adopted politically correct quirk in the mother ship that has caused a daughter ship to escape through the crack in the structure and float free as a new party.

It seems that these splits are ongoing and the problems insoluble. So what is the cause? I would hazard a guess that the causes do not fall very far from the mainstream obligation to conform and as this has caused the three biggies to start sounding like echoes of one another, the smaller split off daughter ships are like arks of vital uncontaminated life-stuff, waiting for the flood to subside so they can reseed and grow new groups.

What is the contaminating influence? Political correctness and infiltration to make this break down any upstart aspirations. Whether this be unionist nationalism or ethnic nationalism, it is nationalism that is irking the troubled souls of the controllers and their perk-ridden staff. They are mounting enormous media assisted campaigns and instituting draconian legislation so that those who seek liberty and independence never see the light of day, no matter in what form this comes. What seems to be important is that it mostly goes. And friction and strife are the best ways to create splits and false responsibility and a profound sense of guilt to keep sheep bleating out the names and locations of "traitors". The real traitors are snug in the grass.

Of course all the smaller ships will have one objective in common and that is to sink the leaking mother ship. If they fight amongst themselves the old galleon can still sail, albeit taking in water and on the road to destruction. Staying afloat is all that matters when something is drowning.

So, when you come to think of it, torpedoing the old harridan wouldn't really be all that difficult if people worked together where this is beneficial and worked at their separate agendas where this is to the vital end of self-determination. There is nothing on earth to prevent these fierce daughter ships from forming an armada.

Ultimately, the union may drift apart, but after the battle that really matters, the parts may ally themselves again as the Isles. And should, as this is how they began their adventures and this is how their peoples are distributed among their regions.

As an Anglo-Saxon, I can hope to defend what is mine by birthright and folk-right. I cannot dictate to or command others to act. But I can help them defend a common cause because they are not, and never should have been, any kind of enemy. They are people of one kind with my people and they share a very special heritage and place that is worth every drop of blood and sweat that went into making it great and free.

Millennium3

Well they had better form an armada soon or all their precious dreams will be sunk for a very long time.

cassie

(1) Perhaps, but this begs questions about the strategy and tactics necessary to achieve it.

(2) The causes vary, but the irony is that much of the disagreement is about strategy and tactics, not necessarily the ultimate objective.

From your position you may not be aware that support for a separate English Parliament is greater than support for 'independence'. Indeed, if the creation of a separate English Parliament becomes synonymous with independence, that support is likely to decrease and, worse, erstwhile supporters of a separate English Parliament will oppose it and independence.

The question to be considered is whether progress will be made more quickly by pursuing the cause of an English Parliament first? What is the point of pressing for independence which attracts much less support and, therefore, is likely to delay any material progress?

There is an initiative which both sides of this debate could unite behind to advance the position of England but, to date, there is little evidence of it being taken up.


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Frith

Yes, I'm aware the support for a Parliament is greater, but I think the support for Independence is hampered by an inculcated fear of "racism". This has been a longed for, hard worked for objective of the left for a while. It has succeeded in that people now call everyone who murmurs the "n" word (nationalism) a fascist and a racist. Hitler grins from every nightmare scenario of chopped up immigrants and hanged "traitors", etc. It's a ploy taken up by many TV documentaries and films. It's everywhere, this grisly dread of a return of Herr Moustache and his SS henchman dragging everyone off to be terminated if the "n" word gains popularity. And I do blame the collection of misfits who persist in setting themselves up as nazis just to get attention. They are a curse to genuine nationalism everywhere. They are used and they love the limelight.

Unfortunate. No one notices the many left wing thugs lurking equally annoyingly all over the place. Stalin was a wonderful man. Filled with the milk of human goodness and didn't really kill 20 million people. Hitler, of course, is evil personified and everyone who even breathes the "n" word is evil too. Breathe the "M" word as much as you like. Belong to every left wing think tank in creation. You will be a valued citizen. A good person. A shining beacon of humanism, etc. The whole vaudeville act is getting boring and this can only be a good thing.

But you're right, of course, it doesn't help the splits. I don't feel split, I feel whole and it is the Independence movement that creates that sense of wholeness, and it does have its fervent believers and they may grow in number, with any luck. They are pretty strong in Scotland by the look of it and that is a sign that there is a change in the way people see their identity.

I have a question, as I am not a political process animal and others are and know all the details that the average human couldn't care less about: Maybe Millennium can also answer this -

Why will the decisions in favour of EU matters mean that there will be no way of getting matters changed? Why would one need a "bloody revolution" to do so? I think most ordinary non-political folk don't know how any of this works, what the laws are that prevent change or rebellion and believe that things done can be undone or that once done they won't make much difference.

Can the EU be left once joined? If not why not?

Once joined, would an EU compliant Britain be unable to have individualist political parties? Would they be illegal? Would would happen to the existing political parties? For example, if Labour decided to join up, and the Tories came into power, could the Tories decide with equal lack of referendum opinion, to simply withdraw from the EU? And if not, why not?

These answers may help many to realise the importance of getting involved before nasty things happen. As this is an open forum, they can read the truth about how they are being stitched up and controlled before they make that decision not to worry about it. Those who do worry about it often do so beyond the mere operation of laws and will genuinely continue their struggles after the horse has bolted. But others will simply say, "I didn't know." Mostly because they didn't.

Millennium3

Frith: 'Why will the decisions in favour of EU matters mean that there will be no way of getting matters changed? Why would one need a "bloody revolution" to do so? I think most ordinary non-political folk don't know how any of this works, what the laws are that prevent change or rebellion and believe that things done can be undone or that once done they won't make much difference.

Can the EU be left once joined? If not why not?

Once joined, would an EU compliant Britain be unable to have individualist political parties? Would they be illegal? Would would happen to the existing political parties? For example, if Labour decided to join up, and the Tories came into power, could the Tories decide with equal lack of referendum opinion, to simply withdraw from the EU? And if not, why not?'

Let me make it quite clear I am not an expert on the Lisbon Treaty which, as far as I understand, has been deliberately produced in a form which is difficult to comprehend - I find the EU Referendum site most informative, it is run by Dr Richard North.

However I do know that after five years majority voting comes into force which will prevent any single country from stopping the wish of the majority. England is to be broken into administrative regions, but Wales and Scotland will remain intact - since the EU [as the new state of Europe of which we will all be citizens] will have primary sovereignty I cannot see this being changed. For England [or Britain] then to leave the EU will be like Cornwall wishing to leave England/Britain.

It is the new sovereign state of Europe which will lock us in. The commissioners have to swear allegiance to Europe, their purpose is to make Europe work - not to take care of their nations national interest. The EU parliament is a talking shop with no power.

Europe is to become one country.

Frith

Then it must be stopped. As soon as possible. And anyone who doesn't scream from the rooftops or march in the streets to retain their pride should feel that they have forsaken the sacrifice of all those who died and fought, were wounded in body and soul, and who gave their most sacred gift, their blood, to prevent the loss of liberty.

It must become good and decent again, to care about these things. It has not in the history of humanity in any place on earth or any time, been considered otherwise.

Millennium3

Wednesday was a dreadful day when Brown put the final nail in the coffin of a referendum.

Frith

Yes, and by doing so he kinda left no doubt as to who and what he is and what he intends to do. "I shall build the Britain of your dreams." A nod to his activists to get ready to begin a nightmare that will make the seventies look like a Sunday school picnic, no doubt, by the time they have finished their make-over.

But nothing, and no one, lasts for ever. This is the gift of time. Rebels are reborn a million times in the womb of the world. This is the gift of endurance.

Northumbrian

That's useful for the likes of the CEP, who, if they are campaigning properly, should be liaising with current MPs. But it means sweet FA for a political party trying to win votes. I would imagine more people in Scotland would want extra powers for their parliament as opposed to independence. Would that mean then, if the SNP dropped their independence policy, they would win more votes?

Northumbrian

1200 EDP members do not represent the people of England.

I remember you saying something along the lines of 'why does the EDP keep trying to recruit people from other parties, when there are 38 million English voters out there?'