Armangle

As far as I am concerned, anyone who has grown up in England, speaks English as their first language and considers themself English is English - be they pink, brown, black or yellow, Christian, Moslem, Jew or Jedi.

The English Question: Who is English?

Although I agree with what Mikeuk said about groups who choose not to intermarry with the English, ie. "If their families have lived here for generations and yet they still have no 'ethnic' English blood in their veins then they would appear to be taking steps to keep themselves non-English."

Frith

I don't agree with that definition. It isn't as though the English are like Americans where ethnicity isn't part of the appellation "American". Ethnicity is part of the appellation English, Welsh, Scot, Pygmy, Sioux, Kenyan, etc. You can't go shoving every Tom, Dick and Harriet into the Sioux nation and forcing them, under threat of accusations of racism, to donate their ethnicity and name to the world's immigrants. In fact many native Americans are now refusing to be destroyed this way.

The Anglo-Saxons and Celts are ethnic groups. They aren't Asians or Africans or Orientals. And there are many English who are much against having their ethnicity given away. It isn't racist to be someone or something. You can be a national but to be an ethnic group you have to be what this group comprises, or you will be a mix or a completely different example. If not, then England will be just another America and the whole world will pillage it until there is nothing of the real English or Celts left.

My opinion, and I have a right to it. We are now like those vanishing native tribes all over the world and our own people are part of why this is happening. They just can't help their Christian heritage of "inclusion". That is where it comes from, and Marxist universalism treading swiftly behind its breakdown to take up the slack. Making everyone who lives in England and "feels" English an actual English person is another way of destroying the real English and suffocating their requests to be acknowledged.

If universal inclusion is on the agenda you may as well kiss Britain goodbye now and have done with it. Personally, I will never accept it even if it happens. I will never forgive anyone for selling their folk down the river for the spurious gratification of a warm glow.

Mikeuk

You may think that. Very few others are likely to share an opinion which runs counter to commonsense.

If anybody can be English then the term has no meaning whatoever.

If you don't believe in national characteristics and hold that we are all world citizens or some guff of that nature, then why not have the courage to say so?

cassie

Nationality relates to particular territory. Therefore, by reason of that alone, it is gross exaggeration to assert that (1) 'anyone can be English', and (2) that the term has 'no meaning whatsoever'. However, given the absence of the requirement to live in the UK, it seems that almost anyone can be British, with any prevention from being so often imposed by foreign governments eg the USA.

I have observed that it is a propensity of those seeking to defend a weak position, to employ absolutes; you know 'always', 'never', 'nothing' etc.


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Frith

Perhaps all these arguments centred on nationality would be better solved by using in certain instances the term "ethnic" to describe people instead of the term "nationality".

ethnic:

1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.

2. Being a member of a particular ethnic group, especially belonging to a national group by heritage or culture but residing outside its national boundaries: ethnic Hungarians living in northern Serbia.

ethnic group: Definition and Much More from Answers.com

cassie

In the context of England, the term 'ethnic' is not sufficient. Indeed, the rights of so called 'ethnic minorities' have been (are being) asserted over and above those of the English. One irony resides in the fact that many of these so called 'ethnic minorities' are globally much, much more numerous than the English and breed much more prolifically! For example, Chinese population 1,500 million, Indians population 1,100 million, Pakistanis 165 million, Bangladeshis 145 million [all of which are represented in England] compared with less than 50 million English!

I prefer the term 'indigenous' to be used here for the English. We have rights also, as set out in UN Declaration 61/295 and, currently, this seems to be the only means of stemming the transcendancy of invading foreigners who refuse to adopt our way of life!

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Frith

I find you very confusing If you're going to go for "indigenous" you're going to get into even hotter water.

indigenous: Existing, born, or produced in a land or region

Duck, here comes a stampeding horde of people born in England and claiming to be indigenous. Whereas little old me is still way down south here and ethnic English yet you don't accept me. Wahhh!!!

Hartlepool

Everyone should be refered to as "people" or inhabitants as in the past and before the EU rash inflicted us all in my opinion.

cassie

I'm not surprised that you are confused. It is those of a people which originated in a place or territory which are indigenous.

Who are widely regarded as the indigenous people in each of Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, North America? Dare I suggest it is Aborigines, Maoris, Fijians and [Red] Indians? Transplants are not what is generally regarded as indigenous, especially if they regard themselves as being different.

The indigenous people of England are the English, not those who, even if born here, classify themselves as (for example) British Muslims, Afro-Caribbeans, British West Indians etc.

You'll be telling me next that Germans and Japanese are indigenous to England! What next? Is there no end to such dilution of the English?


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Frith

I originated in Africa but I am ethnically English. I can't go round calling myself an African. I can adopt Africa as my identity and culture if I want to, but that won't make me an actual African. I'll just be a white bird in a caftan. In the same way an African doesn't become an Englishman just because he gets on a plane and goes and lives in England. He can become a citizen by getting a British passport. I can become a Martian by getting a Martian passport but that won't give me ears like fans or green skin. I'll stay English.

Why on earth would I want to tell you Japanese people were indigenous to England! Really, cassie, you don't half twist things about when you're on thin ice.