English Democrats replace UKIP as premier Eurosceptic Party - Page 3

cassie · 23-02-2008, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wordsworth

You're all being too harsh on poor old Kentishman, you beasts!

To be fair to KM the leader of Dartford EDs is Mike Tibby, we here in Dartford never see KM in the press or at all as he lives in a lovely gated community with no access by the great unwashed he champions so vigorously.

To be fair he's quite shrewd, three of his local members have recently issued a writ against the local authority, which I would imagine they will lose from reading through the background. If they do in fact lose they could very possibly be liable for some very large costs. He has publicised their initiative on another thread but hasn't put his name to the writ. Macavity

Both he and Tibby are to be honest bonkers, but in dear old Tibby's defence he works bloody hard and can always be seen shuffling around Dartford putting out his propaganda and when he's covered the whole borough he starts all over again. I may think that he is not exactly all there but I doff my cap to him for his work, if not his views.

The recent by-election result for the EDs was always going to happen. They peaked last year, and their assertion that their vote has grown over 1000% was pretty daft seeing as they only put out one candidate previously against twenty last year. Taking this logic on board their vote must have just shrunk by thousands of percent!

Oh yeah, like we forced him to post here like the cheap braggart he is about naff all!

Wot's fairness got to do with it? He is frequently attacking other indivduals. It might do him some good to have ordure heaped on his head for a change. Wot's the difference?

In these particular circumstances, the seat should have been won by the EDP.

To be fair, he should confine his highly partial remarks to his own crew; we'd rather hear something sensible! Fat chance with that blowhard!

If he doesn't like it, he knows what he can do . . . !

________________

Britannist · 23-02-2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond Finch

Regarding the Portsmouth result.
Your party (the English Democrats) had stood there previously. Your candidate is chair of Hampshire and a member of your NC. Your vote dropped like a stone from may. UKIP had never previously stood in the ward. It was only the second time we (UKIP) have stood anywhere in Portsmouth.Our score was very disappointing. Yours was a disaster given your previous strength in the city. I will guarantee we will beat you anywhere and everywhere we face you in Pompey in May.

I notice, Raymond, that UKIP got an impressive 23% of the vote - one of the party's highest vote shares in a local election ward By-Election contest so far (and one of the biggest votes any 'small' party has got in a local ward By-Election for a long time) - at Bracknell in Berkshire on 7.2.2008 securing almost as many votes as europhile Labour (in accord with a forecast I have made previously here that UKIP is and will continue to beat Labour into third place in a number of semi-urban and rural wards in the south of England):

UKIP Candidate gets 23% in by-election

Raymond Finch · 23-02-2008, 08:42 PM

Britannist.
The Labour Party are dying on their backs here in the South East. We beat them in a local by-election in Winchester a few months ago when they got 1.5% of the vote.
In Havant and Pompey they are in a terrible state and yet these should be some of their southern powerhouses. What UKIP need to do is start appealing to former Labour voters in the south-east rather than just the Tories (although we have a natural constituency there as well) and it is down to those on the ground to start working the wards. I honestly feel we can start replacing Labour in some of these constituencies. Particularly the ones like Portsmouth South that are now strongly LibDem. Labours vote that transferred to them was originally a "stop the Tories, anti-war" vote. Now they would be looking for a new home as the LDs do not offer any real policies and Labour is seen as a busted flush. We can offer disillusioned voters of both of the major parties a home with our policy platforms.
But they won't come to us, we must come to them. Too often in the past we have expected the voters to vote for us without any commitment from ourselves. This is idiotic and should stop now.
To be fair to the EDs in Pompey, the ones I have met have been nice guys who work hard for the vote and if any of them want to defect I would be happy to work with them to build a real alternative for the people of Hampshire. :-)

david H · 23-02-2008, 09:39 PM

Kentishman, I recently posted some constructive criticism of the ED.s web site and the lack of informationto attract new members. You ignored it! You do not have to respond to constructive criticism but not doing so casts doubt on your determination to develop your party.

HighlandFP · 23-02-2008, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartlepool

Thanks for those words Wordsworth,as you can see most on here just ignore Kentishspam and his rantings.

Rightly so too.

Yup.
QUOTE:
"Invest in London - NOT Edinburgh
VIEWS EXPRESSED IN THIS POST ARE PERSONAL"

He is obviously a lunatic......... now before you acuse me of ad hom·i·nem
attacks, anyone who publicly states, "invest not in the capital city" of the country which will soon become the only free Republic in Europe,
deserves to be ..... I will let you think of a suitable ..............

Britannist · 23-02-2008, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond Finch

The Labour Party are dying on their backs here in the South East.

I absolutely, totally 100% agree with your analysis and interpretation of the situation Raymond - Labour in the south (south-east, south-west; East Anglia and outer parts of 'Greater' London) is very vulnerable indeed to a professional and determined push by UKIP to take their (Labour's) current third place in many wards and constituencies in the semi-urban and rural south of England. I would estimate that pro-EU and pro-euro Labour are falling to bits in at least 200 constituencies and in another 50 can't fall to bits because they have no organisation and practically no members in those seats to lose in the first place. We know that the Labour membership nationally is down from 409, 000 in 1997 to 186, 000 now (according to figures leaked last year from Labour's National Executive Committee). The Conservatives have also lost members since pro-EU David Cameron became Conservative leader and the pro-euro Liberal Dims are down to about 76, 000 (or fewer) from the figure of 100, 000 they were smugly and foolishly boasting about only a few years ago.

On a related point, there are actually whole areas of the country where the europhile Liberal 'Democrats' have no organisation and hardly any members - this is the case in at least 500 constituencies across the UK and it offers UKIP enormous electoral possibilities (i.e. in filling the gap left by the understandable lack of support for the pro-EU Liberal Dims).

Quote:

Mr. Raymond Finch wrote: The Labour Party are dying on their backs here in the South East. We beat them in a local by-election in Winchester a few months ago when they got 1.5% of the vote. In Havant and Pompey they are in a terrible state and yet these should be some of their southern powerhouses.

Good.

Quote:

Mr. Raymond Finch wrote: What UKIP need to do is start appealing to former Labour voters in the south-east rather than just the Tories (although we have a natural constituency there as well) and it is down to those on the ground to start working the wards. I honestly feel we can start replacing Labour in some of these constituencies. Particularly the ones like Portsmouth South that are now strongly LibDem.

I also believe that UKIP can take Labour's current third place in many constituencies up and down the land and certainly in the semi-urban and rural south. The best example of this was in the Parliamentary By-Election at Bromley in Kent in the Summer of 2006 where UKIP (with Mr. Farage as candidate) pushed Labour into fourth place.

Quote:

Mr. Raymond Finch wrote: Labour's vote that transferred to them was originally a "stop the Tories, anti-war" vote. Now they would be looking for a new home as the LDs do not offer any real policies and Labour is seen as a busted flush.

Exactly - denying the europhile Liberal 'Democrats' (LDs) the anti-Iraq 'war' protest vote achieves two things: it stops them holding on to many marginal constituencies at the next General Election (thus reducing the number of hard-line europhiles in the Commons) and, if UKIP can get those anti-Iraq 'war' protest votes instead, it potentially pushes UKIP up the ranking (i.e. lets UKIP move from fourth or fifth place to third place in some constituencies) also helping the wider pro-sovereignty movement.

Quote:

Mr. Raymond Finch wrote: ...they won't come to us, we must come to them.

Very true Raymond - all Parliamentary seats where Labour is currently third must be put on the UKIP target list (as should all constituencies where the europhile Liberal Dims have an MP). The aim of UKIP should be to leaflet each and every voter in those constituencies and to inform all Labour and Liberal 'Democrat' voters (a large proportion of whom are eurosceptic or anti-EU according to opinion polls) that those parties both want to destroy our Pound and put us all under EU Government.

Quote:

Mr. Raymond Finch wrote:To be fair to the EDs in Pompey, the ones I have met have been nice guys who work hard for the vote and if any of them want to defect I would be happy to work with them to build a real alternative for the people of Hampshire.

Another fair comment from you, Raymond: the English Democrats (EDs) have similar views to most in UKIP - both parties are for England and both want out of the EU. I have called before now (in some other threads in this forum) for the two parties to try to cooperate (as and where they can agree to do so).

Richard the Lionheart · 24-02-2008, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentishman

I've met with many political parties as is my remit over the past 4 years, part of our strategy is to increase the size of our party by merger, and to form constuctive alliances, the NC is of course Democratically elected to run the English Democrats party and the NC determines strategy.

Since 2003 informal or formal meetings have occurred with at least 14 registered political parties that would have at least one policy in common with the English Democrats:-

Namely

Liberal Party
UK Reform Party - (Merged with the English Democrats)
UKIP
Senior Citizens Party
Countryside Party
Greenhithe & Scanscombe Residents Assocaition
Veritas
Scottish National Party (SNP)
England First Party
English Progressive Party - (Merged with the English Democrats)
England's Parliament Party
English Independence Party
English Parliamentary party - (Merged with the English Democrats)
New England Party - (Merged with the English Democrats)

Some meetings have progressed into either merger or relations through the English Constitutional Convention, some meetings have simply confirmed views and parties have agreed to disagree and then parted.

Resigning when you do not understand the full picture, is a sign of immaturity, it would appear that you throw your toys out of your pram, everytime something does not go your own way.

You appeared to have got a good group of people together in Hertfordshire three years ago, yet you threw it away, over a meeting you had pre-judged before it occured, and due to your actions did not occur - how can such actions be constuctive for the English Movement, with hindsight, was it worth destroying what you had helped to create in Hetfordshire.

I believe that if you meet with people, then you can find out exactly where they are coming from, and determine if there are things in common or not, you were personally invited to three successive NC meetings to discuss your enthusiams for an policy of English Independence, yet you have never explained why you did not attend.

Web Sites and Internet Forums do not always present the whole truth about people, it's people in this world that make things happen by talking face to face with other people.

I joined the English Democrats in 2003 following the Merger of about 5 Small English Parties in 2002 to form the English Democrats - the English National Party was one of these small parties I understand.

The new Manifesto for the new party - The English Democrats was in 2002 agreed between all of the parties present (I understand).

The basic message was that of a mission statement to achieve an English Parliament as the prime objective of the new party - The English Democrats, it was not until 2005 that the membership voted to confirm the position of an English Parliament within a Federal UK with fiscal automony for England - until this time it was not clear how the English Parliament would be achieved.

Each policy change for the English Democrats is achieved by the General Membership voting Democratically on each policy ammendment or change at a General meeting, either in person or by proxy.

It sounds like your new party will simply start with YOUR vision of how things are to be done, no doubt if your membership voted against YOUR vision then you would once again, "throw your toys out the pram", or no doubt expell them from your party, as you don't seem to have any respect for democracy, or indeed officers of a party democratically appointed by the membership maybe your new party, should have been called the "do as I say party"

After working so hard to merge English Parties into one force over the past 5 years, it is naturally disappointing that you have taken the actions you have.

The idea that you will once again be getting off your chair by your computer, and putting "English" leaflets through letter boxes has to be welcomed, as this action certainly cannot do any harm to the English Movement.

If you come out with some excuse as to why you will not be standing for election, you will of course be a laughing stock for the whole English Movement, I hope we will not be laughing at you, hopefully we will be congratulating you once again for hopefully a credible result in Hertfordshire.

16.8% is the benchmark set last night by the English Democrats in a first past the post election - I suggest you start leafletting now under your own colours if you intend to surpass this.

At a local level the only way of getting party name recognition is regular and repeated leafletting. Leafletting an average ward of 4,000 votes by yourself is quite time consuming, and you will need to repeat the process 4 or 5 times between now and 1 May 2008 if you wish to get a good result.

If you then have time you need to do some door to door canvassing, this is even more time consuming.

You will also have to take out the time to design 4 or 5 leaflets and of course pay for them to get printed.

It's quite a task you have set yourself !

Points:

1. You confirm you DID meet with the England First Party despite your pledge you wouldn't.

2. You also confirm that the merging of parties and agreed manifesto was done by the parties present. As I asked, was this done with the consent of the membership?

Your post illustrates why there is such low voter turn out these days and why political parties and politicians are so mistrusted. You gave us your word you wouldn't meet with them but you did. If party members cannot trust you, why should the electorate?

cassie · 24-02-2008, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard the Lionheart

Points:

1. You confirm you DID meet with the England First Party despite your pledge you wouldn't.

2. You also confirm that the merging of parties and agreed manifesto was done by the parties present. As I asked, was this done with the consent of the membership?

Your post illustrates why there is such low voter turn out these days and why political parties and politicians are so mistrusted. You gave us your word you wouldn't meet with them but you did. If party members cannot trust you, why should the electorate?

Nothing new here then Richard, but it bears someone else like you citing facts which support my complaints about the EDP! Quite simply, it amounts to its principal creditors running the Party as its owners, and not as a democratic political party run by its ordinary members.

Kentishman has attacked me personally and portrayed me as being 'over the top', a 'plant' and other things! Well, others may think so, but what do they think about him now on the basis of his posts here?

There are 38 million voters out there for Mr K to recruit for his party [emphasis on 'his'], but he prefers to come here setting himself up as judge, jury and executioner and to denigrate those who disagree with him.

Shame on you Kentishman! If there is any justice, you will find yourself sidelined and booted out of the EDP yourself if you don't change your way of operating - and soon.

_____________________

blueblood1920 · 24-02-2008, 11:35 AM

I think the ED's like wishful thinking, the BNP are ahead of you and it will show in the London Elections in may.

Kentishman · 24-02-2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueblood1920

I think the ED's like wishful thinking, the BNP are ahead of you and it will show in the London Elections in may.

We only need to wait until 1 May 2008, to determine the relative strengths of the messages

United Kingdome Independence Party (UKIP)
British National Party (BNP)
English Democrats

To further respond to Richard the Lionhearts post, then I have already stated that many meetings have occurred with a complete list of political parties, just because the English Democrats have differrent views to these parties, does not stop dialogue occurring, the timings of any meetings were either way before any "Toys out the Pram actions by Richard" or way after, where any particular meeting caused Richard the Lion Heart any particular problem, his personal views were taken into account.

The fact that he continues to expect to have an influence on the day to day running of the English Democrats, when he has resigned as an officer, and a member, and now set up his own Free Party, shows how "confused" Richard the LionHeart is.

Richard's Free Party to date have recieved ZERO votes.

23-02-2008, 09:39 PM	#24 (permalink)
david H Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 627	Listening to people? Kentishman, I recently posted some constructive criticism of the ED.s web site and the lack of informationto attract new members. You ignored it! You do not have to respond to constructive criticism but not doing so casts doubt on your determination to develop your party.

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23-02-2008, 08:42 PM	#23 (permalink)
Raymond Finch Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 278	Britannist. The Labour Party are dying on their backs here in the South East. We beat them in a local by-election in Winchester a few months ago when they got 1.5% of the vote. In Havant and Pompey they are in a terrible state and yet these should be some of their southern powerhouses. What UKIP need to do is start appealing to former Labour voters in the south-east rather than just the Tories (although we have a natural constituency there as well) and it is down to those on the ground to start working the wards. I honestly feel we can start replacing Labour in some of these constituencies. Particularly the ones like Portsmouth South that are now strongly LibDem. Labours vote that transferred to them was originally a "stop the Tories, anti-war" vote. Now they would be looking for a new home as the LDs do not offer any real policies and Labour is seen as a busted flush. We can offer disillusioned voters of both of the major parties a home with our policy platforms. But they won't come to us, we must come to them. Too often in the past we have expected the voters to vote for us without any commitment from ourselves. This is idiotic and should stop now. To be fair to the EDs in Pompey, the ones I have met have been nice guys who work hard for the vote and if any of them want to defect I would be happy to work with them to build a real alternative for the people of Hampshire. :-)

24-02-2008, 11:35 AM	#29 (permalink)
blueblood1920 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 564	I think the ED's like wishful thinking, the BNP are ahead of you and it will show in the London Elections in may.