"Hansard Society invites three Scots to discuss English votes"

Britannist · 22-01-2008, 12:28 AM

"Hansard Society Invites Three Scots To Discuss English Votes" - the headline of an article on the website/blog of Iain Dale, the former Conservative candidate (please click on the following link and scroll down the page in the section dated 21.1.2008):

Iain Dale's Diary

The meeting will be held on 6.2.2008 at 6.30 pm to 7.45 pm in the House of Lords where the speakers will be the europhile Sir Malcolm Rifkind MP (Foreign Secretary in the disastrous pro-EU Government of Major) and the committed europhile Lord Falconer (the Labour politician) who is totally opposed to England having her own Parliament (even though he spent years campaigning for his nation of Scotland to have one). Adding to the Scottish presence will be Sheena McDonald who will act as Chairman of the meeting. Mr. Iain Dale mentions her in his report on the first link in this posting (above).

Full details of the meeting (and where to register to attend) can be found on the Hansard Society website (who write: "The Scottish voters have elected a nationalist administration to govern them but where does this leave the rest of the UK? Is the West Lothian Question unanswerable? will consider questions such as; Is the Union under threat? Is an English Grand Committee the answer? Could a federal UK work? Questions will be taken from the floor after the discussion by our speakers"):

Is the West Lothian Question unanswerable? - Upcoming Events

Englander 1 · 28-01-2008, 02:22 AM

A letter posted by a friend too modest to post it himself!

An open letter to the Hansard Society of Britain
_____________________________

Chairman
Hansard Society
40-43 Chancery Lane
LONDON
WC2A 1JA.

26th January 2008

Dear Sir

“Is the West Lothian Question unanswerable?” event
House of Lords on 6th February 2008

In a House of Commons Library note, the West Lothian Question is described as “the constitutional anomaly by which Members representing Scottish constituencies (and on occasion from Welsh and Northern Irish seats) may vote on legislation which extends to England, but neither they nor Members representing English seats can vote on subjects which have been devolved to the Scottish Parliament.”
[See http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib...snpc-02586.pdf ]

Therefore, by any objective yardstick it is an anomaly, an inequity predominantly, if not wholly, affecting England and the English. Indeed, this aberration could more succinctly and impartially be stated as: “the constitutional anomaly by which all Members of the House of Commons may vote on legislation affecting England, but none of them can vote on subjects which have been devolved elsewhere.” thus focussing attention on its effects. Accordingly, the question would more appropriately be described as ‘The England Question’ which recognises that it is England which is adversely affected, not West Lothian!

It is common knowledge that the population of England, being more than fifty million, is ten times greater than that of Scotland and amounts to some 84% of the UK’s population. The other 16% have three parliaments between them, whilst England has none! Moreover, whilst the Hansard Society has a ‘Hansard Society Scotland’, in common with many other organisations based in England it has no ‘Hansard Society England’. It so happens that Hansard’s current President is a Scot, and its Vice Presidents include Gordon Brown and David Cameron.

Under ‘What we do’ on Hansard’s website, it is recorded: “We aim to strengthen parliamentary democracy and encourage greater public involvement in politics. At the heart of our work is the principle that civic society is most effective when its citizens are connected with the institutions and individuals who represent them in the democratic process.”

Against the circumstances described above, one might have imagined that, out of a sense of fairness and appropriateness (if nothing else), the Hansard Society would have arranged the event with English speakers on the platform and an English chairman. However, had one imagined that, one would have been very mistaken!

Upon querying this bizarre arrangement (which seems least likely to ‘encourage greater English involvement in politics’), I was informed by your Communications Manager that Lord Falconer and Sir Malcolm Rifkind were chosen because of their parliamentary expertise. (Of course, this does not explain why yet another Scot, Sheena McDonald, is to chair the event!) Even so, I do not accept that, out of a British Parliament comprising 645 MPs and 738 Lords, it is not possible to find two English parliamentarians with comparable if not greater expertise and continuous experience! Indeed, I could nominate two such English parliamentarians myself!

Whilst Sir Malcolm is a Conservative Unionist who rejects the option of an English Parliament, being content to tinker with existing parliamentary arrangements, Lord Falconer is on record as actually rejecting calls for an English Parliament.
[See: Falconer rejects call for English parliament | Special Reports | Guardian Unlimited Politics
and Falconer rejects call for English parliament | Special Reports | Guardian Unlimited Politics ] The narrowness of the Society’s choice of speaker is further demonstrated by the fact of them both being Scottish barristers. No accountant, physician, scientist nor director to be found here then!

Therefore, this Hansard Society event, far from being open to all options is not only skewed but restricted in its approach to the relevant issue. It seems bent on merely giving representatives of the current political establishment another platform.

As it stands, the event would be better staged in Scotland! As I wrote to your Miss Booth, I doubt whether the Hansard Society Scotland would ever dare to arrange a debate at 20 Forth Street, Edinburgh with the question "Is the England Question unanswerable?" and with solely English parliamentarians on the platform!

As it stands, this event typifies discriminatory arrangements whereby the English are persistently marginalised in their own country. One only has to look at how the BBC consistently records its 'Any Questions?' and 'Question Time' programmes in Scotland, with panels invariably packed out with Scots and, occasionally, a non-English person such as Yasmin Alibhai Brown! There seems to be a tacit acceptance that Scottish audiences will not tolerate opinions being expressed by the English. Compare that with recordings of these programmes made in England, where eclectic panels comprise a variety of ethnicities and almost invariably a Scot! This week’s ‘Any Questions?’ recorded in Bristol serves to illustrate the situation in which the Scot, John McFall MP, Chairman of the Commons Treasury Select Committee is a member of the panel. Mr McFall has been prominent in recent months as have his compatriots, Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling and Sir Callum McCarthy, Chairman of the Financial Services Authority in the matter of Northern Rock.

Other groups and communities in Britain are held to need role models, to be represented, but apparently not the English. The essence of democracy is that in general the majority prevails. In England, this has been turned on its head and so called ‘minorities’ prevail. The practice of discriminating against the English in England is so widespread and commonplace now that it is taken as a matter of fact. Consequently, the Hansard Society has made its arrangements on this occasion in the clear expectation that its ‘institutionalised racism’ against England and the English will not attract critical comment; this is evidenced by the feeble attempt to justify the arrangements.

A double standard prevails in UK affairs today in which, on the one hand, any question affecting Scotland must be “for Scots themselves to decide” and the 84% of voters in England are relegated to being passive observers despite the fact that England is affected and, on the other hand, any consideration of similar matters affecting England is subject to wholesale interference by Scots who, if they do not monopolise, predominate in discussions about possible solutions. I have heard quite a number of broadcast discussions about The England Question in which Scots outnumber the single Englishman present (despite the English being ten times more numerous) and other such discussions which were entirely between Scots including the ubiquitous Scottish presenter! I have yet to hear a single broadcast discussion about The England Question in which the English have had even parity of representation!

With its event on 6th February, the Hansard Society is presenting itself with the appearance of having an astonishing lack of sensitivity and political nous at best and ingrained anti-Englishness at worst. The Society’s boast of being “the UK's leading independent, non-partisan, political research and education charity” is called into question and will be seen by many Englishmen as being counterfeit!

I am no less proud of being English than Charles Falconer and Malcolm Rifkind are of being Scottish, as I am entitled to be! Please be in no doubt that I object to the way in which this event has been arranged and that I do not regard the Hansard Society as being non-partisan, but as yet another British institution hostile to the fact of England being a nation in its own right and being properly treated as such.

Yours faithfully

A GODWIN

English Citizen

(Promoting true democracy in England)

The anger of a quiet man

Hansard Society invites three Scots to discuss English votes

Is the West Lothian Question unanswerable?

It most certainly is....see you at the debate!

Frith · 28-01-2008, 05:24 AM

An excellent letter, Englander1. More of the same are needed from equally competent writers on a number of other issues affecting England and the English. A barrage of the things are needed, in newspapers, across the internet, in leaflet form - everywhere, so that people who are English can, from across the English diaspora, know and realise the full extent of their betrayal by the powers that be and recognise and support the fact, not the idea, of an English nation.

arden forester · 28-01-2008, 09:50 AM

Is the West Lothian Question unanswerable? The answer is NO!

Before they became part of the Liberal Democrats, the old Liberal Party had a policy of a federal UK. Tam Dalyell's question has always been fudged because neither the Conservatives or Labour want to give up POWER! The Conservatives used to GOVERN! New Labour now seems only capabale of MANIPULATION.

The answer to the question is as always. Keep the Union as a single parliamentary state or devolve power to four separate assemblies under a UK parliament. I accept that there are political considerations for dividing England (but I don't accept that).

What cannot be allowed to stand is the dog's breakfast we have now. Scotland with a parliament of sorts, Wales with an assembly with different legislative arrangements, Northern Ireland having no opposition to forced power-sharing, and England with an empty plate!

Britannist · 28-01-2008, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arden forester

What cannot be allowed to stand is the dog's breakfast we have now. Scotland with a parliament of sorts, Wales with an assembly with different legislative arrangements, Northern Ireland having no opposition to forced power-sharing, and England with an empty plate!

I agree with you Arden.

An excellent posting from you.

This Labour regime in power may be based at Westminster (i.e. the House of Commons) in the heart of the ancient English capital - but the very last group of people they are working for are the people of England or the English nation.

The status quo on devolution is not acceptable.

The more Labour hold the people of England down the more they put at risk the unity of the Union of the UK which they claim to support. Labour does not understand that support for quitting the UK in England is now over 30% of voters (well over 10 million voters in England) - and that figure will rise if the English are not given constitutional equality with Scotland within the UK.

cassie · 28-01-2008, 12:48 PM

Thanks Englander 1 for bringing the letter to attention here!

I think you'll find that:

'The anger of a quiet man'

'Hansard Society invites three Scots to discuss English votes'

'Is the West Lothian Question unanswerable?'

are all links (see: The Cross of StGeorge blog )

It would probably be useful for a barrage of emails complaining about these arrangements to be sent to hans_admin@hansard.lse.ac.uk rather than just mulling it over here. It is the apparent tacit acceptance of these injustices which have created the situation where arrogant, non-listening minorities have felt able to do as THEY wish. Let's show them how we feel for a change.

Here, for convenience, are the links mentioned above in like order:

The anger of a Quiet Man: You couldn’t make it up could you?

Iain Dale's Diary: Hansard Society Invites Three Scots To Discuss English Votes

Is the West Lothian Question unanswerable? - Upcoming Events

I've sent my complaint and objection already!

____________________________

22-01-2008, 12:28 AM	#1 (permalink)
Britannist Uber Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: London Posts: 22,896	"Hansard Society invites three Scots to discuss English votes" "Hansard Society Invites Three Scots To Discuss English Votes" - the headline of an article on the website/blog of Iain Dale, the former Conservative candidate (please click on the following link and scroll down the page in the section dated 21.1.2008): Iain Dale's Diary The meeting will be held on 6.2.2008 at 6.30 pm to 7.45 pm in the House of Lords where the speakers will be the europhile Sir Malcolm Rifkind MP (Foreign Secretary in the disastrous pro-EU Government of Major) and the committed europhile Lord Falconer (the Labour politician) who is totally opposed to England having her own Parliament (even though he spent years campaigning for his nation of Scotland to have one). Adding to the Scottish presence will be Sheena McDonald who will act as Chairman of the meeting. Mr. Iain Dale mentions her in his report on the first link in this posting (above). Full details of the meeting (and where to register to attend) can be found on the Hansard Society website (who write: "The Scottish voters have elected a nationalist administration to govern them but where does this leave the rest of the UK? Is the West Lothian Question unanswerable? will consider questions such as; Is the Union under threat? Is an English Grand Committee the answer? Could a federal UK work? Questions will be taken from the floor after the discussion by our speakers"): Is the West Lothian Question unanswerable? - Upcoming Events Last edited by Britannist; 22-01-2008 at 12:34 AM.

28-01-2008, 02:22 AM	#2 (permalink)
Englander 1 Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: WARWICKSHIRE Posts: 390 Party: English Democrats	A letter posted by a friend too modest to post it himself! An open letter to the Hansard Society of Britain _____________________________ Chairman Hansard Society 40-43 Chancery Lane LONDON WC2A 1JA. 26th January 2008 Dear Sir “Is the West Lothian Question unanswerable?” event House of Lords on 6th February 2008 In a House of Commons Library note, the West Lothian Question is described as “the constitutional anomaly by which Members representing Scottish constituencies (and on occasion from Welsh and Northern Irish seats) may vote on legislation which extends to England, but neither they nor Members representing English seats can vote on subjects which have been devolved to the Scottish Parliament.” [See http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib...snpc-02586.pdf ] Therefore, by any objective yardstick it is an anomaly, an inequity predominantly, if not wholly, affecting England and the English. Indeed, this aberration could more succinctly and impartially be stated as: “the constitutional anomaly by which all Members of the House of Commons may vote on legislation affecting England, but none of them can vote on subjects which have been devolved elsewhere.” thus focussing attention on its effects. Accordingly, the question would more appropriately be described as ‘The England Question’ which recognises that it is England which is adversely affected, not West Lothian! It is common knowledge that the population of England, being more than fifty million, is ten times greater than that of Scotland and amounts to some 84% of the UK’s population. The other 16% have three parliaments between them, whilst England has none! Moreover, whilst the Hansard Society has a ‘Hansard Society Scotland’, in common with many other organisations based in England it has no ‘Hansard Society England’. It so happens that Hansard’s current President is a Scot, and its Vice Presidents include Gordon Brown and David Cameron. Under ‘What we do’ on Hansard’s website, it is recorded: “We aim to strengthen parliamentary democracy and encourage greater public involvement in politics. At the heart of our work is the principle that civic society is most effective when its citizens are connected with the institutions and individuals who represent them in the democratic process.” Against the circumstances described above, one might have imagined that, out of a sense of fairness and appropriateness (if nothing else), the Hansard Society would have arranged the event with English speakers on the platform and an English chairman. However, had one imagined that, one would have been very mistaken! Upon querying this bizarre arrangement (which seems least likely to ‘encourage greater English involvement in politics’), I was informed by your Communications Manager that Lord Falconer and Sir Malcolm Rifkind were chosen because of their parliamentary expertise. (Of course, this does not explain why yet another Scot, Sheena McDonald, is to chair the event!) Even so, I do not accept that, out of a British Parliament comprising 645 MPs and 738 Lords, it is not possible to find two English parliamentarians with comparable if not greater expertise and continuous experience! Indeed, I could nominate two such English parliamentarians myself! Whilst Sir Malcolm is a Conservative Unionist who rejects the option of an English Parliament, being content to tinker with existing parliamentary arrangements, Lord Falconer is on record as actually rejecting calls for an English Parliament. [See: Falconer rejects call for English parliament \| Special Reports \| Guardian Unlimited Politics and Falconer rejects call for English parliament \| Special Reports \| Guardian Unlimited Politics ] The narrowness of the Society’s choice of speaker is further demonstrated by the fact of them both being Scottish barristers. No accountant, physician, scientist nor director to be found here then! Therefore, this Hansard Society event, far from being open to all options is not only skewed but restricted in its approach to the relevant issue. It seems bent on merely giving representatives of the current political establishment another platform. As it stands, the event would be better staged in Scotland! As I wrote to your Miss Booth, I doubt whether the Hansard Society Scotland would ever dare to arrange a debate at 20 Forth Street, Edinburgh with the question "Is the England Question unanswerable?" and with solely English parliamentarians on the platform! As it stands, this event typifies discriminatory arrangements whereby the English are persistently marginalised in their own country. One only has to look at how the BBC consistently records its 'Any Questions?' and 'Question Time' programmes in Scotland, with panels invariably packed out with Scots and, occasionally, a non-English person such as Yasmin Alibhai Brown! There seems to be a tacit acceptance that Scottish audiences will not tolerate opinions being expressed by the English. Compare that with recordings of these programmes made in England, where eclectic panels comprise a variety of ethnicities and almost invariably a Scot! This week’s ‘Any Questions?’ recorded in Bristol serves to illustrate the situation in which the Scot, John McFall MP, Chairman of the Commons Treasury Select Committee is a member of the panel. Mr McFall has been prominent in recent months as have his compatriots, Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling and Sir Callum McCarthy, Chairman of the Financial Services Authority in the matter of Northern Rock. Other groups and communities in Britain are held to need role models, to be represented, but apparently not the English. The essence of democracy is that in general the majority prevails. In England, this has been turned on its head and so called ‘minorities’ prevail. The practice of discriminating against the English in England is so widespread and commonplace now that it is taken as a matter of fact. Consequently, the Hansard Society has made its arrangements on this occasion in the clear expectation that its ‘institutionalised racism’ against England and the English will not attract critical comment; this is evidenced by the feeble attempt to justify the arrangements. A double standard prevails in UK affairs today in which, on the one hand, any question affecting Scotland must be “for Scots themselves to decide” and the 84% of voters in England are relegated to being passive observers despite the fact that England is affected and, on the other hand, any consideration of similar matters affecting England is subject to wholesale interference by Scots who, if they do not monopolise, predominate in discussions about possible solutions. I have heard quite a number of broadcast discussions about The England Question in which Scots outnumber the single Englishman present (despite the English being ten times more numerous) and other such discussions which were entirely between Scots including the ubiquitous Scottish presenter! I have yet to hear a single broadcast discussion about The England Question in which the English have had even parity of representation! With its event on 6th February, the Hansard Society is presenting itself with the appearance of having an astonishing lack of sensitivity and political nous at best and ingrained anti-Englishness at worst. The Society’s boast of being “the UK's leading independent, non-partisan, political research and education charity” is called into question and will be seen by many Englishmen as being counterfeit! I am no less proud of being English than Charles Falconer and Malcolm Rifkind are of being Scottish, as I am entitled to be! Please be in no doubt that I object to the way in which this event has been arranged and that I do not regard the Hansard Society as being non-partisan, but as yet another British institution hostile to the fact of England being a nation in its own right and being properly treated as such. Yours faithfully A GODWIN English Citizen (Promoting true democracy in England) The anger of a quiet man Hansard Society invites three Scots to discuss English votes Is the West Lothian Question unanswerable? It most certainly is....see you at the debate! __________________ "There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is ENGLAND." - Sir Winston Churchill

28-01-2008, 09:50 AM	#4 (permalink)
arden forester Uber Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Solihull, in The Forest of Arden, Warwickshire! Posts: 2,662 Party: None	Don't leave it to New Labour to answer. We'll all be dead by the time they do! Is the West Lothian Question unanswerable? The answer is NO! Before they became part of the Liberal Democrats, the old Liberal Party had a policy of a federal UK. Tam Dalyell's question has always been fudged because neither the Conservatives or Labour want to give up POWER! The Conservatives used to GOVERN! New Labour now seems only capabale of MANIPULATION. The answer to the question is as always. Keep the Union as a single parliamentary state or devolve power to four separate assemblies under a UK parliament. I accept that there are political considerations for dividing England (but I don't accept that). What cannot be allowed to stand is the dog's breakfast we have now. Scotland with a parliament of sorts, Wales with an assembly with different legislative arrangements, Northern Ireland having no opposition to forced power-sharing, and England with an empty plate! __________________ www.ardenforester.blogspot.com www.westminster-whispers.blogspot.com Last edited by arden forester; 28-01-2008 at 09:52 AM.

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28-01-2008, 05:24 AM	#3 (permalink)
Frith Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 660	An excellent letter, Englander1. More of the same are needed from equally competent writers on a number of other issues affecting England and the English. A barrage of the things are needed, in newspapers, across the internet, in leaflet form - everywhere, so that people who are English can, from across the English diaspora, know and realise the full extent of their betrayal by the powers that be and recognise and support the fact, not the idea, of an English nation.

28-01-2008, 12:48 PM	#6 (permalink)
cassie Uber Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,853	Thanks Englander 1 for bringing the letter to attention here! I think you'll find that: 'The anger of a quiet man' 'Hansard Society invites three Scots to discuss English votes' 'Is the West Lothian Question unanswerable?' are all links (see: The Cross of StGeorge blog ) It would probably be useful for a barrage of emails complaining about these arrangements to be sent to hans_admin@hansard.lse.ac.uk rather than just mulling it over here. It is the apparent tacit acceptance of these injustices which have created the situation where arrogant, non-listening minorities have felt able to do as THEY wish. Let's show them how we feel for a change. Here, for convenience, are the links mentioned above in like order: The anger of a Quiet Man: You couldn’t make it up could you? Iain Dale's Diary: Hansard Society Invites Three Scots To Discuss English Votes Is the West Lothian Question unanswerable? - Upcoming Events I've sent my complaint and objection already! ____________________________