Monmouthshire

Johnny Hates Jazz · 19-12-2007, 11:44 PM

MONMOUTHSHIRE
ENGLAND OR WALES ?

Monmouth is an abbreviation of Monnow-mouth, Monnow originally deriving from the Welsh Myn-wy (myn - swift, wy - water), thus combining both English and Welsh elements. To understand Monmouthshire's position, you first need to understand how the idea of 'England' and 'Wales' was created.

When the Romans were finally driven out in 410 A.D., it wasn't long before the Angles, Saxons and Jutes turned up and settled around the eastern and southern coastal areas. The divided Celtic tribes were too busy fighting each other to notice what was going on, and before too long the Anglo-Saxons were in control of an area roughly corresponding to modern England. There were a number of small Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, which later consolidated into just four; East Anglia, Wessex, Mercia and Northumbria.

Mercia, the midlands kingdom, was at first like the others, driving the Celts out of Shropshire and Herefordshire. But under its two great eighth-century leaders, Aethelbald and Offa, the emphasis changed. More concerned with getting the upper hand over their rival Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, they largely left the Celts to the West untroubled. By this time all these Celts were being called Welsh (from the Anglo-Saxon word wealh, meaning foreigner or slave), whilst they called themselves cymry, meaning comrades. Thus there were the North Welsh ('Cymry-land' or Cumberland), Mid-Welsh (Wales), West Welsh ('Cerniw-wealh' or Cornwall) and South Welsh (Brittany). The Welsh tribes in Wales, being Celtic, still spent most of their time fighting each other. They had cause; in around 760 King Offa began work on the famous Offa's Dyke, a huge ditch to mark the border with the Welsh. It is probable that this ditch was less a defensive device and more a 'here's the border and let's keep it that way' one, enabling Offa to concentrate his efforts against his Anglo-Saxon rivals.

Around this time much of the future west and central Monmouthshire was known as Gwent, and was a kingdom which enjoyed periods of independence between periods of being bossed around by the neighbouring kingdom of Glywysing (roughly Glamorganshire). The combined area, during the periods of unity, was known as Morgannwg. This state of affairs continued for some centuries, but came crashing to an end in 1066 with the Norman Invasion of England. The new king, William I, chose his most savage barons and set them up in the three Marcher counties of Cheshire, Shropshire and Herefordshire, with a licence to get as much land as they could from the Welsh. Monmouthshire was an early victim, and was under full English control by 1074.

Over the next two centuries, the English slowly nibbled away at the Welsh kingdoms until finally, in 1282, they conquered Gwynedd. That year the Principality of Wales came under the control of Edward I. The Statute of Rhuddlan (1284) created the administrative areas that became the shires of Anglesey, Caernarfonshire, Flintshire, Merionethshire, Cardiganshire and Carmarthenshire. Because Edward made his son the first Prince of Wales, this area was called 'the Principality' a name which in modern times has extended to the whole of Wales. The rest of what is now Wales (including Monmouthshire) remained 'uncountified' and in the hands of the Norman-English Marcher lords.

Time rolled on, and in 1485 the Tudors (a Welsh dynasty) came to the English throne. This at first did not affect Wales much - but England's most infamous king, Henry VIII, was to change all that. In 1536, primarily as a financial move, he passed the Act of Union. As part of the reorganisation of the country the Marcher lordships were formed into the counties of Brecknockshire, Denbighshire, Glamorganshire, Montgomeryshire, Radnorshire, Pembrokeshire and Monmouthshire, which along with the 'Principality' shires of Wales, were to be "incorporated, united and annexed to and with his Realm of England".

It was all nice and clear - for six years. Then in 1542 English Common Law was made applicable to the whole of Wales. This gave a statutory foundation to the Court of the Council of the Marches, and justice and administration for Wales were vested in the officers of a new court - the King's Great Session in Wales. Whereas the other twelve counties had their own court circuits, Monmouthshire came under the jurisdiction of the Courts of Chancery and Exchequer at Westminster. There were certain advantages in this. One of these was that Monmouthshire was allowed to send two Knights to Parliament like English counties, unlike Welsh counties which returned only one. In the reign of Charles II, Monmouthshire was included in the Oxford circuit, together with Oxford, Gloucester, Worcester and Hereford. The county became a popular one for rich Victorians to settle in during the Industrial Revolution. A 1937 map shows the Anglo-Welsh border passing clearly to the west of the county.

Monmouthshire's motto as a county was Usque Fidelis (Latin, faithful to both), emphasizing its border status. It carried on quite happily, until the disastrous 1974 ****-up of local government, when it was renamed Gwent and formally transferred to Wales by a Labour government bent on placating the Welsh Nationalists. (A sneaky move, as being a predominantly English county this weakened the nationalist cause overall). In 1996 it was all change again as a second round of cockeyed misorganization followed. Gwent was replaced by five Unitary Authorities, one of which was half into old Glamorganshire, plus a few other border changes. These were as follows:

Unitary Authority
From pre-194 Monmouthshire
From other counties
To other counties

BLAENAU GWENT
Abertillery, Beaufort, Blaina, Ebbw Vale, Nantyglo, Tredegar
Brynmawr (from Brecknockshire)

CAERPHILLY
Bedwas, Blackwood, Crumlin, Oakdale, Rhymney, Risca
Caerphilly, Llanbradach, Gelligaer, Bargoed, Nelson (from Glamorganshire)

MONMOUTHSHIRE
Abergavenny, Caldicot, Chepstow, Monmouth, Raglan, Usk

NEWPORT
Caerleon, Newport, Redwick, Rogerstone

Rumney, St. Mellons (to Glamorganshire)

TORFAEN
Abersychan, Blaenavon, Cwmbran, Pontypool

In 2000 another Labour government ran a referendum on Welsh devolution. In spite of millions being pumped into the Yes campaign (nothing for the No side, of course), it just scraped home by a fraction of a percent. The 'new' Monmouthshire voted 49-1 against.

--------------------------------- ----------------------------------

Westcountryman · 19-12-2007, 11:51 PM

The point of this being? The EDs don't want it to be part of England do they?

Johnny Hates Jazz · 20-12-2007, 12:11 AM

Keep Up

Google on "Letting Monmouthshire Decide"

Smidgey · 20-12-2007, 12:12 AM

The history lesson seemed extremely revisionist. It reads as if the Celts were savages who spend all their time killing one another, compared to their civilised neighbours...

Westcountryman · 20-12-2007, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentishman

Keep Up

Google on "Letting Monmouthshire Decide"

Whilst it would be extremely interesting to have Newport become a city of England, this surely can't be anything other than an ED wet dream.

Even if there was a vote, I have little doubt that Monmouthshire would remain Welsh. I know plenty of Welsh people in Newport who would scream blue murder if Newport became part of England.

Britannist · 20-12-2007, 12:23 AM

There is no doubt at all that the way Monmouthshire was 'moved' (i.e. transferred) from England to Wales late at night during a procedure in the House of Commons which did not even involve a proper debate or vote in the House of Commons was an absolute disgrace.

I understand that the well-known Labour MP Mr. Gerald Kaufman was just about the only person to raise objection in the Commons to the way the County of Monmouth was 'moved' from England and into Wales.

No one in Monmouthshire was asked about the decision to 'move' the ancient county out of England and one result of this is that now - 34 years later - the people of the County of Monmouth find themselves under the power of the costly and expensive Welsh Assembly and those attending schools throughout the solidly English-speaking County of Monmouth have to learn Welsh at school.

Now Welsh is a very nice language - but do all of the parents of those school pupils in Monmouthshire on the English-border want their children to learn it when the time could be spent, instead, on learning (in the English language) Welsh history?

Britannist · 20-12-2007, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eurosceptic Atlanticist

.......if there was a vote, I have little doubt that Monmouthshire would remain Welsh.

As I am sure you would agree, Eurosceptic Atlanticist - it wouldn't even matter whether Monmouthshire was a part of Wales or England if there had not been devolution (i.e. the setting up of the costly and expensive Welsh Assembly).

Before devolution we had a Unitary UK in which there was - I am pleased to recall - absolutely no difference between the way Monmouthshire (now in Wales) and neighbouring Gloucestershire (in England) were governed and administered.

Devolution is highlighting differences (where they may exist); devolution is creating differences and devolution is fermenting division.

Westcountryman · 20-12-2007, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Britannist

As I am sure you would agree, Eurosceptic Atlanticist - it wouldn't even matter whether Monmouthshire was a part of Wales or England if there had not been devolution (i.e. the setting up of the costly and expensive Welsh Assembly).

Before devolution we had a Unitary UK in which there was - I am pleased to recall - absolutely no difference between the way Monmouthshire (now in Wales) and neighbouring Gloucestershire (in England) were governed and administered.

Devolution is highlighting differences (where they may exist)'; is creating differences and is fermenting division.

I can completely agree with that Britannist. In fact, I was going to argue that it doesn't matter, as England and Wales are so closely entangled (Ie. Everything is 'England and Wales' - legal system, policing etc).

However, as you correctly point out, the advent of the Welsh Assembly has completely changed the nature of the relationship between England and Wales - possibly forever.

Perhaps the only saving grace is that only a little over 25% of Welsh voters actually voted 'for' the assembly in the first place, with nearly as many voting against.

Johnny Hates Jazz · 20-12-2007, 12:41 AM

The 'new' Monmouthshire voted 49-1 against the Welsh Assembly

Either the people of 'new' Monmouthshire feel very British or very English.

================================================== =====

A proper referendum in 'new' Monmouthshire would return a pro-English vote, but the main political parties will not currently let this happen.

The way that Monmouthshire was transferred from England to Wales in the 1970's was an utter disgrace.

Westcountryman · 20-12-2007, 12:43 AM

There are quite a few pro-Welsh comments on your 'Let Monmouthshire Decide' site Kentishman.

19-12-2007, 11:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
Johnny Hates Jazz Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,973 Party: English Democrats	Monmouthshire - why did it happen ? MONMOUTHSHIRE ENGLAND OR WALES ? Monmouth is an abbreviation of Monnow-mouth, Monnow originally deriving from the Welsh Myn-wy (myn - swift, wy - water), thus combining both English and Welsh elements. To understand Monmouthshire's position, you first need to understand how the idea of 'England' and 'Wales' was created. When the Romans were finally driven out in 410 A.D., it wasn't long before the Angles, Saxons and Jutes turned up and settled around the eastern and southern coastal areas. The divided Celtic tribes were too busy fighting each other to notice what was going on, and before too long the Anglo-Saxons were in control of an area roughly corresponding to modern England. There were a number of small Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, which later consolidated into just four; East Anglia, Wessex, Mercia and Northumbria. Mercia, the midlands kingdom, was at first like the others, driving the Celts out of Shropshire and Herefordshire. But under its two great eighth-century leaders, Aethelbald and Offa, the emphasis changed. More concerned with getting the upper hand over their rival Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, they largely left the Celts to the West untroubled. By this time all these Celts were being called Welsh (from the Anglo-Saxon word wealh, meaning foreigner or slave), whilst they called themselves cymry, meaning comrades. Thus there were the North Welsh ('Cymry-land' or Cumberland), Mid-Welsh (Wales), West Welsh ('Cerniw-wealh' or Cornwall) and South Welsh (Brittany). The Welsh tribes in Wales, being Celtic, still spent most of their time fighting each other. They had cause; in around 760 King Offa began work on the famous Offa's Dyke, a huge ditch to mark the border with the Welsh. It is probable that this ditch was less a defensive device and more a 'here's the border and let's keep it that way' one, enabling Offa to concentrate his efforts against his Anglo-Saxon rivals. Around this time much of the future west and central Monmouthshire was known as Gwent, and was a kingdom which enjoyed periods of independence between periods of being bossed around by the neighbouring kingdom of Glywysing (roughly Glamorganshire). The combined area, during the periods of unity, was known as Morgannwg. This state of affairs continued for some centuries, but came crashing to an end in 1066 with the Norman Invasion of England. The new king, William I, chose his most savage barons and set them up in the three Marcher counties of Cheshire, Shropshire and Herefordshire, with a licence to get as much land as they could from the Welsh. Monmouthshire was an early victim, and was under full English control by 1074. Over the next two centuries, the English slowly nibbled away at the Welsh kingdoms until finally, in 1282, they conquered Gwynedd. That year the Principality of Wales came under the control of Edward I. The Statute of Rhuddlan (1284) created the administrative areas that became the shires of Anglesey, Caernarfonshire, Flintshire, Merionethshire, Cardiganshire and Carmarthenshire. Because Edward made his son the first Prince of Wales, this area was called 'the Principality' a name which in modern times has extended to the whole of Wales. The rest of what is now Wales (including Monmouthshire) remained 'uncountified' and in the hands of the Norman-English Marcher lords. Time rolled on, and in 1485 the Tudors (a Welsh dynasty) came to the English throne. This at first did not affect Wales much - but England's most infamous king, Henry VIII, was to change all that. In 1536, primarily as a financial move, he passed the Act of Union. As part of the reorganisation of the country the Marcher lordships were formed into the counties of Brecknockshire, Denbighshire, Glamorganshire, Montgomeryshire, Radnorshire, Pembrokeshire and Monmouthshire, which along with the 'Principality' shires of Wales, were to be "incorporated, united and annexed to and with his Realm of England". It was all nice and clear - for six years. Then in 1542 English Common Law was made applicable to the whole of Wales. This gave a statutory foundation to the Court of the Council of the Marches, and justice and administration for Wales were vested in the officers of a new court - the King's Great Session in Wales. Whereas the other twelve counties had their own court circuits, Monmouthshire came under the jurisdiction of the Courts of Chancery and Exchequer at Westminster. There were certain advantages in this. One of these was that Monmouthshire was allowed to send two Knights to Parliament like English counties, unlike Welsh counties which returned only one. In the reign of Charles II, Monmouthshire was included in the Oxford circuit, together with Oxford, Gloucester, Worcester and Hereford. The county became a popular one for rich Victorians to settle in during the Industrial Revolution. A 1937 map shows the Anglo-Welsh border passing clearly to the west of the county. Monmouthshire's motto as a county was Usque Fidelis (Latin, faithful to both), emphasizing its border status. It carried on quite happily, until the disastrous 1974 **-up of local government, when it was renamed Gwent and formally transferred to Wales by a Labour government bent on placating the Welsh Nationalists. (A sneaky move, as being a predominantly English county this weakened the nationalist cause overall). In 1996 it was all change again as a second round of cockeyed misorganization followed. Gwent was replaced by five Unitary Authorities, one of which was half into old Glamorganshire, plus a few other border changes. These were as follows: Unitary Authority From pre-194 Monmouthshire From other counties To other counties BLAENAU GWENT Abertillery, Beaufort, Blaina, Ebbw Vale, Nantyglo, Tredegar Brynmawr (from Brecknockshire) CAERPHILLY Bedwas, Blackwood, Crumlin, Oakdale, Rhymney, Risca Caerphilly, Llanbradach, Gelligaer, Bargoed, Nelson (from Glamorganshire) MONMOUTHSHIRE Abergavenny, Caldicot, Chepstow, Monmouth, Raglan, Usk NEWPORT Caerleon, Newport, Redwick, Rogerstone Rumney, St. Mellons (to Glamorganshire) TORFAEN Abersychan, Blaenavon, Cwmbran, Pontypool In 2000 another Labour government ran a referendum on Welsh devolution. In spite of millions being pumped into the Yes campaign (nothing for the No side, of course), it just scraped home by a fraction of a percent. The 'new' Monmouthshire voted 49-1 against. --------------------------------- ---------------------------------- __________________ English Democrats SAY NO To European Union English not British** not European *- It's time to decide at the 2009 European Elections*

19-12-2007, 11:51 PM	#2 (permalink)
Westcountryman Uber Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Westcountry. Posts: 5,922 Party: None	The point of this being? The EDs don't want it to be part of England do they? __________________ Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietam - "This hand of mine, which is hostile to tyrants, seeks by the sword quiet peace under liberty."

20-12-2007, 12:11 AM	#3 (permalink)
Johnny Hates Jazz Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,973 Party: English Democrats	Keep Up Google on "Letting Monmouthshire Decide" __________________ *English Democrats SAY NO* To European Union English not British** not European *- It's time to decide at the 2009 European Elections*

20-12-2007, 12:12 AM	#4 (permalink)
Smidgey Uber Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 2,195 Party: Libertarian Party	The history lesson seemed extremely revisionist. It reads as if the Celts were savages who spend all their time killing one another, compared to their civilised neighbours... __________________ How vain is man, who boasts in fight the valour of gigantic might! -Georg Friedrich Händel

20-12-2007, 12:23 AM	#6 (permalink)
Britannist Uber Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: London Posts: 22,896	Monmouthshire, England, Wales, Commons, Labour MP, Kaufman, Welsh Assembly, history There is no doubt at all that the way Monmouthshire was 'moved' (i.e. transferred) from England to Wales late at night during a procedure in the House of Commons which did not even involve a proper debate or vote in the House of Commons was an absolute disgrace. I understand that the well-known Labour MP Mr. Gerald Kaufman was just about the only person to raise objection in the Commons to the way the County of Monmouth was 'moved' from England and into Wales. No one in Monmouthshire was asked about the decision to 'move' the ancient county out of England and one result of this is that now - 34 years later - the people of the County of Monmouth find themselves under the power of the costly and expensive Welsh Assembly and those attending schools throughout the solidly English-speaking County of Monmouth have to learn Welsh at school. Now Welsh is a very nice language - but do all of the parents of those school pupils in Monmouthshire on the English-border want their children to learn it when the time could be spent, instead, on learning (in the English language) Welsh history?

20-12-2007, 12:41 AM	#9 (permalink)
Johnny Hates Jazz Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,973 Party: English Democrats	The 'new' Monmouthshire voted 49-1 against the Welsh Assembly Either the people of 'new' Monmouthshire feel very British or very English. ================================================== ===== A proper referendum in 'new' Monmouthshire would return a pro-English vote, but the main political parties will not currently let this happen. The way that Monmouthshire was transferred from England to Wales in the 1970's was an utter disgrace. __________________ *English Democrats SAY NO* To European Union English not British** not European *- It's time to decide at the 2009 European Elections*

20-12-2007, 12:43 AM	#10 (permalink)
Westcountryman Uber Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Westcountry. Posts: 5,922 Party: None	There are quite a few pro-Welsh comments on your 'Let Monmouthshire Decide' site Kentishman. __________________ Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietam - "This hand of mine, which is hostile to tyrants, seeks by the sword quiet peace under liberty."

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