Monmouthshire - why did it happen ?

cassie · 20-12-2007, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

The history lesson seemed extremely revisionist. It reads as if the Celts were savages who spend all their time killing one another, compared to their civilised neighbours...

Where did (do) all these 'Celts' reside?

cassie · 20-12-2007, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kentishman

The 'new' Monmouthshire voted 49-1 against the Welsh Assembly

Either the people of 'new' Monmouthshire feel very British or very English.

================================================== =====

A proper referendum in 'new' Monmouthshire would return a pro-English vote, but the main political parties will not currently let this happen.

The way that Monmouthshire was transferred from England to Wales in the 1970's was an utter disgrace.

In 1997, the claimed majority in favour of a Welsh assembly was 50.3% on a claimed turnout of 50.1%. [Forgive my scepticism!]

This is to say that some 75% of the electorate in Wales (then 2,200,611) did NOT vote for the assembly!

Although England as part of the UK has been affected by the creation of this and the other assemblies, the 36,462,327 voters in England at that time were denied any collective voice about these developments such is the way British democracy has been operated. Indeed, voters in England have even been denied any collective say about how devolved powers should be exercised in England!

It is quite simply ridiculous for representatives of 16% of the UK's population to be able to interfere in the business of the other 84%, whilst representatives of the 84% are prevented from directly affecting the affairs of the 16%, especially when account is taken of the financial and social consequences.

________________________________

Smidgey · 20-12-2007, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cassie

Where did (do) all these 'Celts' reside?

That depends. What period of history are we talking?

cassie · 20-12-2007, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

That depends. What period of history are we talking?

You mentioned 'Celts', not I!

Methinks you're being shifty ie shifting ground! Usually a sign of weakness.

Smidgey · 20-12-2007, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cassie

You mentioned 'Celts', not I!

Methinks you're being shifty ie shifting ground! Usually a sign of weakness.

Actually, the article mentioned it - which is what I was concerning in my post.

Stop talking things out of context, it's not as if I mentioned Celts out of the blue, is it? You used the word 'Celts' as well. Explain yourself!

So which point in history are you talking about? If you asked me how many people lived in the roman world, I would ask you: "when?".

P.S. It's nice that you let that little cat out of the bag - I thought you were asking a straightforward question, but your rejoinder post clearly shows you to be in a confrontational mood.

cassie · 20-12-2007, 01:55 AM

The point I wish to make here is that many in Scotland and Wales use the term 'Celts' and 'Celtic countries' in a way which implies that there were (and are) no Celts in England! A number of studies have concluded that this is not so.

Indeed, although Celts may have become a minority in England, they were (are) numerically greater in England than the populations of what we now call Scotland and Wales! Which brings me to another point ~ the suggestion that the 'Celtic nations' are purely celts. Again, this is misleading.

I would not dispute that the article you mention (in the initial posting), contributes to the notion that there are no English Celts.

SilverFalcon · 20-12-2007, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Britannist

There is no doubt at all that the way Monmouthshire was 'moved' (i.e. transferred) from England to Wales late at night during a procedure in the House of Commons which did not even involve a proper debate or vote in the House of Commons was an absolute disgrace.

I understand that the well-known Labour MP Mr. Gerald Kaufman was just about the only person to raise objection in the Commons to the way the County of Monmouth was 'moved' from England and into Wales.

No one in Monmouthshire was asked about the decision to 'move' the ancient county out of England and one result of this is that now - 34 years later - the people of the County of Monmouth find themselves under the power of the costly and expensive Welsh Assembly and those attending schools throughout the solidly English-speaking County of Monmouth have to learn Welsh at school.

Now Welsh is a very nice language - but do all of the parents of those school pupils in Monmouthshire on the English-border want their children to learn it when the time could be spent, instead, on learning (in the English language) Welsh history?

Perhaps when they are all forced to learn a foreign language instead of either English or Welsh they may wake up to the fact that they should have done something canny about the matter at the time.

I enjoyed the history lesson. I hope significant numbers of English people of all ages who should be thinking hard about their future enjoyed it too.

arden forester · 20-12-2007, 09:46 AM

Prior to 1974, Monmouthshire wasn't really anywhere other than just being Monmouthshire. The legal status was "Wales & Monmouthshire" but that was by tradition rather than anything else. Monmouthshire was not considered English or Welsh as a county, but a bit of both.

Northumbrian · 20-12-2007, 10:53 AM

Unfortunately, to use sport as example, all the people from Monmouthshire have represented Wales at rugby, football etc. Newport have always been members of the Welsh RFU and Newport Co have played in the Welsh FA Cup.

So although the status was ambiguous it was leaning more towards Wales than England.

arden forester · 20-12-2007, 11:09 AM

That is true. The trouble was that in 1974 nobody asked the people of Monmouthshire. It's a bit like Belgium! One side is Welsh leaning, one side is English.

My guess is that a referendum would keep them in Wales, because of the issues like health, etc.

It was a sorry tale of "we know best" from the Great Grocer's Government!

20-12-2007, 09:46 AM	#18 (permalink)
arden forester Uber Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Solihull, in The Forest of Arden, Warwickshire! Posts: 2,662 Party: None	Prior to 1974, Monmouthshire wasn't really anywhere other than just being Monmouthshire. The legal status was "Wales & Monmouthshire" but that was by tradition rather than anything else. Monmouthshire was not considered English or Welsh as a county, but a bit of both. __________________ www.ardenforester.blogspot.com www.westminster-whispers.blogspot.com

20-12-2007, 11:09 AM	#20 (permalink)
arden forester Uber Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Solihull, in The Forest of Arden, Warwickshire! Posts: 2,662 Party: None	That is true. The trouble was that in 1974 nobody asked the people of Monmouthshire. It's a bit like Belgium! One side is Welsh leaning, one side is English. My guess is that a referendum would keep them in Wales, because of the issues like health, etc. It was a sorry tale of "we know best" from the Great Grocer's Government! __________________ www.ardenforester.blogspot.com www.westminster-whispers.blogspot.com

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20-12-2007, 01:55 AM	#16 (permalink)
cassie Uber Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,852	The point I wish to make here is that many in Scotland and Wales use the term 'Celts' and 'Celtic countries' in a way which implies that there were (and are) no Celts in England! A number of studies have concluded that this is not so. Indeed, although Celts may have become a minority in England, they were (are) numerically greater in England than the populations of what we now call Scotland and Wales! Which brings me to another point ~ the suggestion that the 'Celtic nations' are purely celts. Again, this is misleading. I would not dispute that the article you mention (in the initial posting), contributes to the notion that there are no English Celts.

20-12-2007, 10:53 AM	#19 (permalink)
Northumbrian Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, England Posts: 1,427 Party: Free England Party	Unfortunately, to use sport as example, all the people from Monmouthshire have represented Wales at rugby, football etc. Newport have always been members of the Welsh RFU and Newport Co have played in the Welsh FA Cup. So although the status was ambiguous it was leaning more towards Wales than England.