EDP vs UKIP split off thread

[Britannist]

Originally Posted by komerad

Re: #20

The devolved “parliaments” of Wales, Scotland & N. Ireland are here to stay.

That's what they said about the 'regional' assemblies (all just abolished except for the one in London) and that's what they said about the Greater London Council (abolished), 'Humberside' (abolished), the 'West' Midlands County Council - covering a population area slightly less than the population of Wales (abolished) and Avon - covering a population area of about a million people (abolished).

[Britannist]

Originally Posted by harryaldridge

So i take it you are against devolution then?!!

I am a Unionist and was against Labour's devolution - which has weakened our United Kingdom and damaged the constitution and unity of the nation.

I would like to go back to the Unitary state (i.e. one single Government for the whole of the UK and NO rival Parliaments) we had before Blair/Brown (backed by the europhile Liberal Dims) brought in their disastrous devolution plan.

The 'English Question' has to be addressed or support for the Union (of the UK) could be damaged in England. England is not being treated fairly. The UKIP proposals on clearing up the Labour/Lib Dim mess on devolution are among the most interesting I have come across.

[Britannist]

Originally Posted by komerad

Re: harryaldridch #20
Quote:“The devolved parliaments will be scrapped with national MPs taking up the role”Quote.


“Abolish the Wales Assembly” was the principal message of the UKIP (Wales)
manifesto for the recent Wales Assembly elections. It went down like a lead balloon.

UKIPs policy is to abolish the present Welsh Assembly and hand its responsibilities to Welsh MPs who would meet in different parts of Wales to legislate on specifically Welsh matters. In their absence from the House of Commons, English constituency MPs would deliberate on English domestic matters.

When the people of Wales become fully aware of the massive cost of the present Welsh Assembly I believe that they will be view alternative some alternative suggestions to it with interest. The cost of the Welsh Assembly - as well as the full constitutional implications of it - have not yet been made a mainstream issue in Welsh politics.

We will see how the Welsh people feel about the cost of the Assembly upon the occasions of its tenth birthday in 2009.

[tito]

Originally Posted by cassie

It won't wash! Why should the fifty million people of England have less favourable treatment in this (as in other matters) than the other ten million in other parts of the UK which have three 'parliaments' between them?

There are 129 MSPs in the Scottish assembly. An English Parliament similarly constituted would amount to over 1,290 members of an English Parliament, not taking account of the AMs in Wales and members of the NI Assembly. I am not advocating an English Parliament of 1,500 members or more, but cite these figures to illustrate the difference in treatment.

The UKIP policy conveniently skips over these aspects, and very often its proponents are not English and omit to say so.

Because the Scottish and Welsh assemblies would dissappear. Devolution would still stay the same but with England fairly represented.

[rjt]

But what about Northern Ireland? Is it UKIPS policy to rewrite the Good Friday Agreement?

[Little Englander (sour)]

It should be re-written and this time Make England a member of the British-irish Council with equal representation to Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland.

[rjt]

Originally Posted by Little Englander (sour)

It should be re-written and this time Make England a member of the British-irish Council with equal representation to Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland.

Intresting idea, but not I dont think UKIP policy?

[komerad]

Originally Posted by Britannist

That's what they said about the 'regional' assemblies (all just abolished except for the one in London) and that's what they said about the Greater London Council (abolished), 'Humberside' (abolished), the 'West' Midlands County Council - covering a population area slightly less than the population of Wales (abolished) and Avon - covering a population area of about a million people (abolished).

Agreed! The “regional assemblies “ you mention were exactly that and were not voted in by the local populace..
The Wales, Scottish & N. Ireland Parliament / Assemblies are NATIONAL institutions, voted in democratically by their electorate. That’s the big difference.
I have asked the following question .many times at Branch meetings & at Wales Committee Meetings “How exactly are you going to Abolish the Wales, Scottish & N. Ireland Parliaments / Assemblies which were democratically elected”
I have never yet received a suitable answer from anyone in our party!
Answers like “Ahh - When we get in power……………………etc etc. or some other similar nonsense.
Let’s be realistic, they are here to stay, get used to it.
IMHO,I have more chance of being the next man on the moon than UKIP
being able to abolish these institutions, especially N.Ireland.
By the way - I voted AGAINST the Wales Assembly & always have!!

[rjt]

I agree with the last post, the key question for people of all/ no partys is how to make these institutions work and get a fair deal for England, anything else is hankering too the past.

[cassie]

Originally Posted by Britannist

UKIP proposes that the Welsh Assembly and Scottish Parliament be abolished with MPs from the House of Commons who represent Welsh and Scottish constituents do the job at less cost by meeting regularly in different parts of Wales and Scotland to deliberate on Scottish/Welsh matters. In their absence from the House of Commons English constituency MPs would deal with specifically English matters.

All the parts of Great Britain would be governed in the same way at less cost than at present and legislation would be debated and voted on in all parts of Great Britain by the same people who sit in the Union (i.e. UK) Parliament (the House of Commons).

UKIP not getting a large vote in Scotland or Wales at the last General Election does not mean that the people of Scotland and Wales disagree with the party's policy on devolution and on answering 'the English Question'.

I would expect that that the UKIP proposals would generate much interest if they 'went mainstream' in Scottish and Welsh politics and could, one day, be put to the Scottish and Welsh people in a referendum.

In broad terms, the policy described by harryaldridge seems to meet the criterion of equity and fairness, but I think rjt has hit the really important nail right on the head. It is not sufficient having a reasonable policy if it does not command wide support. Even though one might regard another policy as inferior, it has to be considered if it meets most other criteria and is likely to attract increasing support.

As has been said many times before, we have to proceed from where we are, not from where we would like to be.