Britannist

Former UKIP leader Mr. Roger Knapman MEP apparently backs a voting system called Total Representation (believed to have been devised in Israel).

Total Representation keeps the constituencies but when the election is over the total votes across the country of all parties are added up and those who are under-represented in constituency wins (i.e. those political parties who win few or no constituencies but who have support spread out too thinly around the country to win many or any seats) are compensated by being seats in the House of Commons according to their share of the national vote.

The Parliamentary seats awarded to those small parties who did not win many or any constituencies would be given to candidates from those parties who were on a reserve list of names compiled by each party. The person at the top of each list would have the greatest chance of being elected from the list with the person at the bottom of the list having the least chance.

If a party such as UKIP got 10% of the national vote but won no constituencies, the TR voting system would ensure that UKIP ended up with some seats in the House of Commons filled by UKIP members elected from a reserve list of candidates.

Total Representation (TR) is said to be better than Alternative Vote because:

1. Voters do not have to express their second or third preferences (i.e. they are not asked to vote - through second or third preferences - for parties they do not like).

2. TR is a more stable voting system than AV which can over-compensate winners and harshly punish losing parties.

3. TR discourages tactical voting - electors who have traditionally voted for a party not because they fully support it but because they think it has a better chance of winning in their constituency than voting for a small party they do agree with are more likely to vote for small parties under TR when they see that it is not "a wasted vote". In other words in a TR election, even if that small party does not win in constituencies, votes for that party in each constituency will help elect an MP (or MPs) for that party from the list of candidates which are used to elect MPs for small parties who got votes across the country but who secured few or no wins at all in the constituencies. TR actually increases the chance of small parties winning in some constituencies by reducing the trend of tactical voting.

4. TR requires only one vote - no second or third preferences and no separate votes for a list of candidates. In a TR election, there is only vote which could either elect an MP in the constituency or elect an MP via the national list of candidates each party would put up at election time.

TomPhil

I too have heard on good authority that AV is likely to replace FPTP within the next few decades. This is of great concern, as there are some serious problems with AV: see this page.

Estimates show that the only party that would benefit from AV+ is the Liberal Democrats, as most voters would put them second (and of course they would be most likely to enter into a coalition with one of the other main parties).

TR sounds interesting; I may look into that further. The immediate problem I can see is that it may lead to coalitions, which entails the political parties choosing the government rather than the voters. I looked into the issue for an essay I wrote for my degree and there are serious problems with any system that results in coalitions - I think I wrote in more detail in another thread, but essentially it becomes extremely hard for voters to change the government, and there are many bizarre outcomes where parties can increase their share of the vote yet lose their place in government. Our current system is not perfect by any means, but I remain to be convinced that an alternate system could do better.

__________________
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government."

In Labour we trusted and now we are busted... again. It's the economy, stupid.

TomPhil

On the subject of coalitions, some stuff I've pulled out of my essay:

In 103 elections in Germany, Italy, Japan, Switzerland, Belgium, the Netherlands and Sweden in the fifty years since 1945 (all PR countries in which there is rarely one party with an overall majority), only 6 times have the electorate been able to remove the government. In contrast, in 58 elections in the same period in Britain, New Zealand (this survey of elections takes into account only elections before the introduction of Mixed Member proportional representation (MMP) in New Zealand), Canada and India (all “Westminster model” countries), sitting governments were ousted by voters in 25 elections.

Also, an interesting example is that "there appears to be a virtually perfect inverse relationship between the electoral success of the Danish Liberals and their inclusion in government."

Reference: Pinto-Duschinsky, Michael (1999) Send the rascals packing: Defects of proportional representation and the virtues of the Westminster model. Representation, 36(2), pp. 117 – 126 at pp. 120 – 122.

__________________
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government."

In Labour we trusted and now we are busted... again. It's the economy, stupid.

Populist Lee

About two years ago the LibDems let it be known that PR was no longer on their "Demands" List.
Now we can see why.

arden forester

There are two truths here.

1. There will never be any agreement on a PR system assuming there is agreement in the first place.
2. The Westminster system of democracy allows for a government side and an opposition side, so PR does not favour the two-party system.

__________________
www.westminster-whispers.blogspot.com

TomPhil

The Liberal Democrats would probably do well out of any system. They are still pushing for STV - see http://www.libdems.org.uk/media/docu...onal_Sep07.pdf

However, they have said that they would accept AV as a first step towards it - I'm sure they would - AV is likely to put them in a coalition in which they could then demand STV be introduced, as they did for local government elections in Scotland.

It is well known that parties in the Liberal Democrats positions often end up permanently in government under PR systems (and, I should expect, AV too, or at least something like AV+). I had a great statistic I might dig out about exactly this happening in Germany.

I'm sure that many Liberal Democrats support PR on principle, but certainly in practice it would be of enormous help to them, as would AV.

__________________
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government."

In Labour we trusted and now we are busted... again. It's the economy, stupid.

TomPhil

To reinforce my previous post, here's some interesting stuff about why the Liberal Democrats may very much support a new voting system:

Since the Second World War, the Free Democrats in Germany have received under 10% of the vote, but have been in power more than either of the major parties.

Reference: Hain, Peter (1986) Proportional Misrepresentation: The Case Against PR in Britain. Hants, Wildwood House, p. 32

Since 1949, the Free Democrats have received about 9% of the vote, but have held an average of 19% of the cabinet portfolios.
The Social Democrats, with about four times more of the vote, have held an average of 21% of cabinet portfolios.

Reference: Pinto-Duschinsky, Michael (1999) Send the rascals packing: Defects of proportional representation and the virtues of the Westminster model. Representation, 36(2), pp. 117 – 126 at p. 124

__________________
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government."

In Labour we trusted and now we are busted... again. It's the economy, stupid.

Populist Lee

Thank you for the above information.
Simon Hughes MP was rather smug last Saturday at the CEP event I am told.
No wonder, if he believes these changes are definitely on the way.

It has to be added that Hughes' speech was a disaster.
About a tenth of the audience got up and walked out.

British-Conservatism

The Liberal vote would collapse under PR as they are mostly a protest vote anyway.
Few people identify as Liberal.
With other alternatives available that could be elected they would die.

__________________
http://conservativedemocraticalliance.blogspot.com/

Populist Lee

But we're not going to get PR . . .

The Liberals have woken up to how AV in a single member constituency will work for them.