Frith

I have been a member since June 2005 (had another name). I remember this then as the UKIP forum and I remember it being very new left oriented. The friction between the nationalist and the left/libertarian supporting faction was as ferocious as it is now, but the forum has changed and is now more libertarian/patriot and many people no longer support the BNP. Often what looks like a BNP supporter is a raving nazi. They have a habit of masquerading as ordinary nationalists and so do racists. They usually make the most trouble. It's their modus operandi. Not all BNP members or supporters are like this (many are now either split off into hostile factions or in the process of modernising) and it is a pity that they are being tarred with the same brush.

If some are joining with multiple accounts or trolling then their intentions are negative. But the hostility between groups and ideologies is still rife. It probably always will be and I find this basically rather depressing.

Aardvark

Frith: Not too much of a touch of the tar brush as that could preclude people from being BNP members.

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Frith

Didn't notice that. Seriously, though, in a modernised group this would almost certainly fall away.

John Connor

No. This forum has always been right/libertarian. If it had been left leaning there's no way I'd have been here for so long.

Oh, and no libertarian has ever been leftist. It's just not possible, since libertarianism is just about the most right wing stance possible.

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There are three types of people in this world: Libertarians, fascists and those who haven't been paying attention.

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Hunter

Libertarianism is far-right???

Please explain.

Alex McKee

The left/right axis is meaningless. Without a commitment to personal liberty, any government becomes authoritarian and displays the extremes associated with far right/far left.

The meaningful axis is the libertarian/authoritarian axis.

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Hunter

Which, in layman terms, is???

Frith

They mean well but what they really want is for everyone aged under 25 to take power and lead the world to glory because, yea, they have overcome Mummy and Daddy's foul ideologies and are marching to eternal oneness in global brotherhood. Remember when we were also like this? In our various ways. Each generation thought they had stumbled on a "eureka" moment for mankind. Nuts. Unfortunately there is no such thing. Providence forgot to add it when we were made. Fortunately no one let us anywhere near the car keys until we could drive and even then most of our leaders crashed into trees they didn't think would be there.

Alex's words are good ones to build on, though. And he hasn't omitted the fact that liberty and authority go together because true liberty is a pipe dream and responsible government is the only way any individual or group can make anything work, even for a short while. To make things work in the long term, you need commitment and discipline. That's where the problem comes in ...

The left/right axis is still there, however, because no one has really moved an inch from where they were, just shifted the goalposts instead.

John Connor

Yes. Take a look at the political compass.

The true left-right line runs from top left to bottom right. So, turn that chart 45 degrees counter-clockwise. There you go.

Left = collectivism.
Right = individualism.

The only reason why anyone believes anything else is because the left have done such a good hatchet job on the definitions. The "far right" that the left keep banging on about (i.e. the BNP and their ilk) are actually left of centre - it's just that the traditional left doesn't like to be reminded of this because it hits a little too close to home. They'd prefer it if the mindless morons who're likely to vote for them remain in the dark about the link between leftism and authoritarianism.

The facts of the matter are that you can't have a leftist/collectivist government/state without authoritarianism and you can't have a rightist/individualist government/state with it.

There's a reason my sig says what it says.

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The Bear

Funny enough I see the BNP as being the result when you mix blinkered ignorant and racist Socialist and rabid brutal Nationalist ideologies.

The irony is that the true Conservative is actually far more willing to try something new and progressive than the soap dodgers of the left who simply want to share their poverty with all and sundry, and the uber right wing Nationalist loonies who hanker after whatever the modern day version of the mythical golden age they would love to return to.

What a shame they doesn’t realise that the real gold of that age was the colour of the phlegm coughed up by the millions of consumptive people who lived in that time they long so much to see return.