"Labour neglects Church of England" says Church of England report

BonnieDundee · 10-06-2008, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

But it is not harmful through my action - I did not inflict that harm.

Not to mention, that the welfare state is created on the back of an inflicted harm in the first place and no Christian who accepts their ten commandments should support it without being a hypocrite.

That only depends on dodging readings mate. If you are talking about thou shall not steal. It depends on defining a particular action as theft which is highly debateable.

Not that I support the welfare state I just don't like arguments which simply go "it is wrong because it is theft."

The Bear · 10-06-2008, 08:33 AM

Personally I am decidedly pro choice and not just for the right of a woman to decide whether or not to not terminate a pregnancy.

Also for the right for her to terminate the life of a neo natal faced with the prospect of a poor life, or the choice for any person to terminate, and if necessary be assisted in the termination of their own life. That must surely the MOST basic human right of all.

On the other hand I do not want to introduce laws that prevent people with an alternative view to have to terminate an unwanted pregnancy nor for her to have to terminate the life of a neo natal with poor life prospects nor to insist that anyone with some terminal condition must be “put to sleep”.

So on that basis what gives anyone the idea that they and their mates, even if they are in a majority, think for one moment in time that they should take the rights away from people to choose for themselves?

Especially when using for their justification something as ridiculous as their “faith”.

BonnieDundee · 10-06-2008, 08:55 AM

Not sure about the neonatal but I agree with the rest Bear.

Smidgey · 10-06-2008, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

Now there are two religions which I wish Westerners were taking up. Particularly Taoism, very libertarian.

I'll second that. Sadly it is badly supressed in its heartland of China.

Smidgey · 10-06-2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

That only depends on dodging readings mate. If you are talking about thou shall not steal. It depends on defining a particular action as theft which is highly debateable.

Well, the Bible was been watered down so much, translated, censored, re-written so many times to make it almost useless as a moral document.

Quote:

Not that I support the welfare state I just don't like arguments which simply go "it is wrong because it is theft."

Well, there's much more to my libertarianism than that, it's just that this specific argument happened to focus on that. As I said in another post, I like to accept Bastiat's view, which incorportates both utilitarian and ethical libertarianism.

BonnieDundee · 10-06-2008, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

Well, there's much more to my libertarianism than that, it's just that this specific argument happened to focus on that.

It is all sorts of rightwingers I've heard give that kind of argument. Particularly fundamentalists. Not particularly American style libertarians though.

It is a silly argument obviously because it relies on a particular definition of theft without proving it. Also it seems to be at odds with alot of the NT.

Quote:

As I said in another post, I like to accept Bastiat's view, which incorportates both utilitarian and ethical libertarianism.

Indeed. I've never read much of Bastiat myself except his exchanges with Proudhon and some bits on the broken window analogy.

Smidgey · 10-06-2008, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

It is all sorts of rightwingers I've heard give that kind of argument. Particularly fundamentalists. Not particularly American style libertarians though.

It is a silly argument obviously because it relies on a particular definition of theft without proving it. Also it seems to be at odds with alot of the NT.

The point of the argument is that it relies upon a common sense definition of theft - the taking of someone's property without their consent - in order to be as persuasive as possible in that context.

Quote:

Indeed. I've never read much of Bastiat myself except his exchanges with Proudhon and some bits on the broken window analogy.

Ah, he's one of my personal heros and the libertarian author I take after most. What's interesting about him is that he has a lot of personal experience of the fallacies of the state (having grown up in a France bankrupted by Napoleon), not to mention that he is one of the few victorian authors who isn't extremely boring.

10-06-2008, 08:33 AM	#42 (permalink)
The Bear Uber Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: East Anglia Posts: 2,178	Personally I am decidedly pro choice and not just for the right of a woman to decide whether or not to not terminate a pregnancy. Also for the right for her to terminate the life of a neo natal faced with the prospect of a poor life, or the choice for any person to terminate, and if necessary be assisted in the termination of their own life. That must surely the MOST basic human right of all. On the other hand I do not want to introduce laws that prevent people with an alternative view to have to terminate an unwanted pregnancy nor for her to have to terminate the life of a neo natal with poor life prospects nor to insist that anyone with some terminal condition must be “put to sleep”. So on that basis what gives anyone the idea that they and their mates, even if they are in a majority, think for one moment in time that they should take the rights away from people to choose for themselves? Especially when using for their justification something as ridiculous as their “faith”. __________________ I am an old man. I have eaten much salt.

10-06-2008, 08:55 AM	#43 (permalink)
BonnieDundee Uber Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Between Mallaig and Cornwall. Posts: 2,809	Not sure about the neonatal but I agree with the rest Bear. __________________ "It is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday facilitate a police state." -Bruce Schneier How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your TV; build your own cabin and pss off front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.* Edward Abbey Leopold Kohr.

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