"Labour neglects Church of England" says Church of England report

The Bear · 09-06-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjt

In which case then you would only have one perspective influencing events, that of non belief. As a Christian my faith influences the decisions I make, you seek to cut me out of the political spectrum.

For your faith to influence your decisions on how you lead YOUR life is one thing. When your decisions will affect people who do not believe in some “god” then you should not get involved in a decision making process that will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjt

What is a catholic for example to do when a vote comes up in the HOC which is expressly against the churches teaching?

They should abstain from voting. Nothing more, nothing less.

In my view because of the huge influence that the Vatican has over RC’s through it’s spider’s web like organisation, complete with spider at the centre, RC’s should be barred from any part of decision making government.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjt

By your reasoning no catholic could sit in the HOC or they should ignore there beliefs, better I feel for people to state clearly their beliefs, or lack of them and be judged by the voters, people like Edward Leigh, Ian Paisley, John Gummer have been elected time and time again and they have always followed their churches teachings, should none of them be allowed to sit in the HOC?

If they let the influence of their respective churches affect how they will vote, no they should not.

Aardvark · 09-06-2008, 02:52 PM

At the last census over 70% of the population defined themselves as nominally, at least, Christian. Why should the 30% who do not share that faith decide that those who do should not be allowed to vote according to their conscience.

'If there is no God then everything is allowed' might have been a suitable aphorism before the last war, but it is faith in God that created the country in which we now live. It was the faith of Keir Hardie that created the Labour Party, it was the faith of Wlberforce that ended the Atlantic slave trade etc etc.

Bear, would you have forbad the Christians who campaigned against slavery from voting so that the secular slave owners could get their own way?

rjt · 09-06-2008, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bear

For your faith to influence your decisions on how you lead YOUR life is one thing. When your decisions will affect people who do not believe in some “god” then you should not get involved in a decision making process that will.

They should abstain from voting. Nothing more, nothing less.

In my view because of the huge influence that the Vatican has over RC’s through it’s spider’s web like organisation, complete with spider at the centre, RC’s should be barred from any part of decision making government.

If they let the influence of their respective churches affect how they will vote, no they should not.

If someone feels stongly against something they should vote against it and be judged accordingly by the electorate, in a representative democracy there should be the widest range of opinons possible seeking to exclude people because they vote according to their consience is extremly prejudicial.

Smidgey · 09-06-2008, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

At the last census over 70% of the population defined themselves as nominally, at least, Christian. Why should the 30% who do not share that faith decide that those who do should not be allowed to vote according to their conscience.

Alternatively, why should that 70% get to decide for the 30%?

Quote:

'If there is no God then everything is allowed' might have been a suitable aphorism before the last war, but it is faith in God that created the country in which we now live. It was the faith of Keir Hardie that created the Labour Party, it was the faith of Wlberforce that ended the Atlantic slave trade etc etc.

Bear, would you have forbad the Christians who campaigned against slavery from voting so that the secular slave owners could get their own way?

That's a bit cheap to describe the slave owners as secular. I think you'll find that most of them justified slavery from the Bible. Just like Fuller and Locke came to different conclusions about a just state from the same starting point (God and the Bible), so too did people on either side of the slave trade arguments.

Furthermore, who's to say that had Christianity never existed (let us assume that Europe remained pagan) that the West wouldn't be more free, prosperous, advanced, liberal and so forth than it is now?

Smidgey · 09-06-2008, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjt

If someone feels stongly against something they should vote against it and be judged accordingly by the electorate, in a representative democracy there should be the widest range of opinons possible seeking to exclude people because they vote according to their consience is extremly prejudicial.

Not because they vote according to their conscience, but the foundations their conscience is based upon.

P.S. voting according to ones conscience as opposed to voting according to evidence or argument is a very poor way of decision making - perhaps it would be best if it were excluded.

rjt · 09-06-2008, 03:21 PM

we have had a lot of negative references to religion in this thread and by implication doctrine and teaching, should those of us who feel the doctrine of socialism is damaging argue that no socialists should sit in parliament? After all socialists have caused far more damage to this coutry in recent times than any Catholic or Anglican. It strikes me this thread is being used as an excuse for anti christian ranting rather than the real issue.

Smidgey · 09-06-2008, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Besoeker

As it should be in my opinion.
BTW, I prefer Bach (JS, not CPE) to Handel.

Bach is also good, no doubt. However, I do prefer the flowing styles of Handel, Vivaldi and latterly Beethoven to the mathematical style of Bach I'm afraid (not that I think he's poor, just not as good).

Smidgey · 09-06-2008, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjt

we have had a lot of negative references to religion in this thread and by implication doctrine and teaching, should those of us who feel the doctrine of socialism is damaging argue that no socialists should sit in parliament? After all socialists have caused far more damage to this coutry in recent times than any Catholic or Anglican. It strikes me this thread is being used as an excuse for anti christian ranting rather than the real issue.

They should not be allowed to sit in parliament in my opinion.

Over the course of this nations history, however, socialism has probably done less harm than Catholicism or Protestantism has. Although, on a global scale, I think it might be pretty close with socialism perhaps coming out on top.

rjt · 09-06-2008, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

They should not be allowed to sit in parliament in my opinion.

Over the course of this nations history, however, socialism has probably done less harm than Catholicism or Protestantism has. Although, on a global scale, I think it might be pretty close with socialism perhaps coming out on top.

And of course you would not vote for them, but socialism is favoured by some in this country and they would want socialists in parlaiment to support there views just as I want representatives thee who support mine.

The idea put forward that someone should deny there beliefs earlier in the thread that oncle elected with there views well known they should deny them and abstain is nonesense it is like me telling you to support an expanded welfare state, it is not goingto happen.

Smidgey · 09-06-2008, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjt

And of course you would not vote for them, but socialism is favoured by some in this country and they would want socialists in parlaiment to support there views just as I want representatives thee who support mine.

The idea put forward that someone should deny there beliefs earlier in the thread that oncle elected with there views well known they should deny them and abstain is nonesense it is like me telling you to support an expanded welfare state, it is not goingto happen.

Except me not supporting a welfare state doesn't harm anyone else through my action, you supporting your religious views in politics does.

09-06-2008, 02:52 PM	#22 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,692	At the last census over 70% of the population defined themselves as nominally, at least, Christian. Why should the 30% who do not share that faith decide that those who do should not be allowed to vote according to their conscience. 'If there is no God then everything is allowed' might have been a suitable aphorism before the last war, but it is faith in God that created the country in which we now live. It was the faith of Keir Hardie that created the Labour Party, it was the faith of Wlberforce that ended the Atlantic slave trade etc etc. Bear, would you have forbad the Christians who campaigned against slavery from voting so that the secular slave owners could get their own way? __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

09-06-2008, 03:21 PM	#26 (permalink)
rjt Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Aldershot Posts: 5,292	we have had a lot of negative references to religion in this thread and by implication doctrine and teaching, should those of us who feel the doctrine of socialism is damaging argue that no socialists should sit in parliament? After all socialists have caused far more damage to this coutry in recent times than any Catholic or Anglican. It strikes me this thread is being used as an excuse for anti christian ranting rather than the real issue. __________________ Mr Delors said that he wanted the European Parliament to be the democratic body of the community, The Commission to be The Executive and The Council Of Ministers The Senate. NO! NO! NO! (Margaret Thatcher 30 Oct 1990) Ignore List: The Prophets of ST Al the Unelectable.

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