Nationalism

Smidgey · 01-06-2008, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

Libertarianism and Conservatism are very different things.
Conservatives have always supported collectivism based on race and nation while Libertarians only believe in the individual.

Libertarians believe in far more than the individual. I already mentioned this above, but you are confusing state and society again. It is the state with which we have a problem, not society.

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This only changed with Thatcher.
Friedman once said: "the thing that people do not recognise is that Margaret Thatcher is not in terms of belief a Tory. She is a nineteenth-century Liberal.
Mrs. Thatcher believed in economic liberalism and stated in 1983 that "We have a duty to make sure that every penny piece we raise in taxation is spent wisely and well. For it is our party which is dedicated to good housekeeping—indeed, I would not mind betting that if Mr. Gladstone were alive today he would apply to join the Conservative Party".[3] In the 1996 Keith Joseph memorial lecture Mrs. Thatcher argued that "The kind of Conservatism which he and I...favoured would be best described as "liberal", in the old-fashioned sense. And I mean the liberalism of Mr. Gladstone, not of the latter day collectivists".

That may be true, but this is really an issue for conservatives, not for libertarians. Although, Thatcher was good in some respects, she was extremely anti-libertarian in others (such as her love of censureship and the fact that she was extremely anti-liberty in social issues).

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This Libertarian belief is quite similar to the Marxist view as individual being economic units.

Could you please back this up?

The individual being an ethical unit is what we believe, we also understand that 'man is a political animal'. The two are far from being mutually exclusive.

Quote:

Difference being Communists of course support collectivism based on international class solidarity.
Libertarians being the original left of course have just been out flanked by the Commies.

Please tell me, if libertarianism is the original left, would you like to explain how and where it fits on the left-right axis? The definition that right is individualistic and libertarian and the left is collectivistic and authoritarian can accomodate all ideologies quite well on the left-right axis. I'm finding it difficult to imagine where libertarianism fits in your axis without it looping back on itself.

Hartlepool · 01-06-2008, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bear

Nationalism is simply tribalism by another name.

It's time it was put behind us.

To become what?

British-Conservatism · 01-06-2008, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

Libertarians believe in far more than the individual. I already mentioned this above, but you are confusing state and society again. It is the state with which we have a problem, not society.

That may be true, but this is really an issue for conservatives, not for libertarians. Although, Thatcher was good in some respects, she was extremely anti-libertarian in others (such as her love of censureship and the fact that she was extremely anti-liberty in social issues).

Could you please back this up?

The individual being an ethical unit is what we believe, we also understand that 'man is a political animal'. The two are far from being mutually exclusive.

Please tell me, if libertarianism is the original left, would you like to explain how and where it fits on the left-right axis? The definition that right is individualistic and libertarian and the left is collectivistic and authoritarian can accomodate all ideologies quite well on the left-right axis. I'm finding it difficult to imagine where libertarianism fits in your axis without it looping back on itself.

Well based on the original meaning of Left and Right I would have Traditional Conservatives on the Right, Fascists and National Socialists in the Centre, Libertarians on the Left, and Socialists and Communists on the Far Left.

British-Conservatism · 01-06-2008, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartlepool

To become what?

International Socialism would be his answer no doubt.

Frith · 01-06-2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tara

On my travels around the world wide web I came across this >

And this >

Is Nationalism essentially left wing Socialist Labour? If so, they are alienating traditional Conservatives who are against mass immigration like myself. What is wrong with Thatcherite, BMW drivers? My parents voted for Thatcher and I was driven to school in a BMW and if that makes me a 'sneering ba' then what does that make 'Old Labour, Socialist types'? Yes, sneering ba!! Or is this a north south divide thing? If so, I'm getting sick and tired of northerners sneering at southerners, they need to get over themselves.

I would like to know what Nationalism means to others because I'm a little confused and need to be educated on this. If it means I should be embracing old Labour then I won't be supporting or voting for anybody.

I'm so jealous you went to school in a BMW. My father had a black Chev from the fifties and then a grey Chrysler Valiant that rattled like a tin can full of pebbles and then a little white Hilman Vogue. And then a second hand Volvo when he retired. Does this make me a nationalist or don't chevvies count? Do chevvies make us Elvis fans instead? Preslyites with white wall tyres and maroon upholstery.

I feel like you do, tara, bored with all this bull. It doesn't help the situation to point fingers at so-called Thatcherites or socialists, does it? While people are doing that other things are happening to their countries and people.

I always wanted one of those Palomino stallions I could ride to school bareback and with no bit and bridle, just a halter. What does that make me? Nuts? Maybe, but think of how much fuel it would save. Hey, maybe I should really be in the Green Party. Oh, no, wait, that's full of socialists. I give up. I think I'll just stay me. And keep wishing for a horse like that famous King who couldn't get one when he wanted one either ...

Tara · 01-06-2008, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frith

I feel like you do, tara, bored with all this bull. It doesn't help the situation to point fingers at so-called Thatcherites or socialists, does it? While people are doing that other things are happening to their countries and people.

Yes that's right, I think Nationalists should put their left/right differences to one side and come together, our futures depend on it.

Just Googled some 1950's black Chevrolets and they look pretty stylish to me, some of those old cars are beautiful.

For_England · 01-06-2008, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tara

On my travels around the world wide web I came across this >

And this >

Is Nationalism essentially left wing Socialist Labour? If so, they are alienating traditional Conservatives who are against mass immigration like myself. What is wrong with Thatcherite, BMW drivers? My parents voted for Thatcher and I was driven to school in a BMW and if that makes me a 'sneering ba' then what does that make 'Old Labour, Socialist types'? Yes, sneering ba!! Or is this a north south divide thing? If so, I'm getting sick and tired of northerners sneering at southerners, they need to get over themselves.

I would like to know what Nationalism means to others because I'm a little confused and need to be educated on this. If it means I should be embracing old Labour then I won't be supporting or voting for anybody.

I think it's just the difference between free-trade libertarianism, and the old protectionist policies that used to unite Conservative and old Labour against the Liberals. But now all three parties have the same free trade liberalism, and the BNP is the only party representing the old conservative/old labour protectionist view, which puts people before large corporations.

For_England · 01-06-2008, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

You confuse state and society - on the biggest mistakes of our time. Nationalism is an ideology that confuses these two, just like socialism and communism do.

Pardon me, and I'm open to have your correction on this, but it seems you're the only one confusing the two when you claim that nationalists are collectivist - we actually believe in smaller and more representative government (i.e. state) then the other parties, but yet you called us collectivist because we affirm what should be the strong, binding, societal ties of ethnic, linguistic, and cultural solidarity. Please could you define your terms so that I'm not misunderstanding what you mean by 'collectivist'.

tito · 01-06-2008, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by For_England

Pardon me, and I'm open to have your correction on this, but it seems you're the only one confusing the two when you claim that nationalists are collectivist - we actually believe in smaller and more representative government (i.e. state) then the other parties, but yet you called us collectivist because we affirm what should be the strong, binding, societal ties of ethnic, linguistic, and cultural solidarity. Please could you define your terms so that I'm not misunderstanding what you mean by 'collectivist'.

Collectivism is the logical fallacy that you can judge a man by his peers or an unrelated attribute.

So, one might say "All black people are stupid". "Society benefits from X" "The people want" "Britain needs"

Smidgey · 02-06-2008, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by For_England

Pardon me, and I'm open to have your correction on this, but it seems you're the only one confusing the two when you claim that nationalists are collectivist - we actually believe in smaller and more representative government (i.e. state) then the other parties, but yet you called us collectivist because we affirm what should be the strong, binding, societal ties of ethnic, linguistic, and cultural solidarity. Please could you define your terms so that I'm not misunderstanding what you mean by 'collectivist'.

By collectivist I am talking about the state. People can be as collectivist as they want in society, one doesn't have to take part.

In order for you to implement your nationalism, it has to come through the state. I don't see how you will improve nationalistic tendencies by reducing the size of the government. Take the BNP for example, a highly nationalistic party. Their policies would drastically increase the size of the state.

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