Question Time for a Genuine Socialist Party?

22ANDUK · 26-05-2008, 01:04 PM

Does Britain need a new, genuinely socialist labour party?

Before the cries of "More Socialism? Never!" allow me to explain...

I'm asking if there needs to be a outwardly and honestly socialist movement, made up on leading decent and hard-working Socialist leaders, figures and members and that supports British independence and freedoms.

Such a movement, that would genuinely have care and concern for the average man and woman not by necessarily taxing the wealthy or successful to the hilt - but instead by opposing total capitalist global policies, by being firm on the European Union and supporting withdrawal from the EU to prevent the ordinary British citizen being enslaved, also by supporting a tough stance on economic immigration to prevent the lowering of wages.

A Socialist movement can still support independence and sovereignty, and can do some good. I'm imagining a movement that is led by figures with similar ideals to Tony Benn, Ernest Bevin, Nye Bevan, Arthur Scargill and Clement Atlee. In a modern context this movement could be fronted by people like Jon Cruddas (Roman Catholic and who supported restrictions on abortion), Austian Mitchell (who is a member of the 'Better Off Out' movement) or even someone such as Frank Field, who proposes sensible reforms of the Welfare State.

I'm not saying that the figures mentioned above are exacctly what I had in mind, but they do refer to the sort of character that would be needed in British politics - outspoken, honest and forthright politically politicians who are millions miles away from the clones and drones of current mainstream party politics.

Part of the reasoning behind is should withdrawal of the EU occur than party politics will undoubtedly rumble and groan on. More so a number of political parties Conservative, Liberal, Libertarian and of course Socialist will still be in existence. Rather than wait for the current Liberal Democrats, Labour or Conservative parties to just drag us back into it, they'll need to be a cross section of political views that will oppose EU membership. (Also practically speaking a schism within the ranks of the Left would divide up further their chances of government

)

So whilst a strong and resurgent Socialist movement would be in conflict with UKIP ideals, at least the battle for a better Britain could go on without having to worry about the issue of the EU.

Dissident Congress · 26-05-2008, 01:41 PM

It seems strange why there isn't a "Traditional Labour Party" that is reasonably active. I don't mean a communist, or a Marxist, or a revolutionary party, but something along the lines of old Labour. Such a party probably wouldn't be much cop in strong BNP areas, but it could be a strong player in rock solid Labour areas that are very white with low immigration such as south Wales, South Yorkshire, or Durham.

There was an article written by DC called "It's not Labour, it's Blair" that highlights the reason for the lack of a Traditional Labour Party resulting from an assumption amongst most Labour supporters that once Blair goes, Labour will revert back to old Labour principles, therefore rendering the creation of a new party as unnecessary.

In the mid 1990s I read that Arthur Scargill's Socialist Labour Party would be serious challengers to Labour in their heartlands by the turn of the 21st century. It hasn't happened and the Socialist Labour Party appears to be in decline. It is unique amongst the left for being anti-EU.

22ANDUK · 26-05-2008, 02:10 PM

Indeed interesting points. I've always been a little sympathetic to genuine Socialism, despite not being a Socialist.

I suppose there are a few factors - some being the ones you mentioned DC. Also, the lack of Proportional Representation would make it hard for such a Party to break through, like most other smaller or growing parties.

However, yes, there is fertile territory across Britain for such a movement from Yorkshire to East London to South Wales and the North East, and I would include areas were the BNP are strong (such a movement would focus on policies and confront issues such as immigration and housing, offering a simialr movement without the apparent racial element).

It was the 2001 General Election I believe that saw the St. Helen's constituency, a fiercely Labour area, elect the millionaire former Conservative Shaun Woodward over the Socialist Arthur Scargill, leader of the Socialist Labout Party.

Perhaps the impending in-fighting will lead to a schism matching that of the late 70s and ealry 80s, this time with a Socialist "Gang of Four" breaking off, though political integrity and bravery is in shorter supply these days.

Dissident Congress · 26-05-2008, 02:37 PM

Lack of proportional representation is a hindrance but less damaging than to UKIP or the Greens because support for a Traditional Labour Party is more concentrated in fewer areas whereas support for UKIP and the Greens is more thinly spread out. A Traditional Labour Party could probably win constituencies like Ogmore or Hull East, but they won't bother fielding candidates in constituencies like Surrey East or Buckingham.

It would be interesting to watch a Traditional Labour Party fight an area where the BNP is strong such as Dagenham. Even more so if the Traditional Labour Party is anti-immigration and culturally very British.

Westcountryman · 27-05-2008, 07:23 AM

Make Socialism history!

BonnieDundee · 27-05-2008, 10:01 AM

Only if market fundamentalism and fanatical attachment to lockean property rights are made history as well WCM.

In reality a reasonably libertarian and decentralist socialist movement may be a good thing.

Westcountryman · 27-05-2008, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

Only if market fundamentalism and fanatical attachment to lockean property rights are made history as well WCM.

In reality a reasonably libertarian and decentralist socialist movement may be a good thing.

I support a limited welfare state, but is must be exactly that - limited.

BonnieDundee · 27-05-2008, 10:15 AM

Personally I prefer more libertarian policies which help to help more people to own productive property and tend to have a limiting effect on accumulation, particularly unproductive accumulation, such as a land value tax.

peoplesvoice · 27-05-2008, 05:03 PM

Peoples voice is a political party that intends to contest parliamentary and local elections in the United Kingdom, including the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly. We are an un-registered party at the moment but intend to register.

We have a set of policies, which we believe are popular. We do not set out to be all things to all people.

We find the problem in the U.K. is that the three main political parties Labour, Conservatives Liberal Democrats are appealing to the same group of voters and the elector is denied real choice. Party politics has become a spectator sport with little involvement by the members, Conferences are held where no real decisions are made by members.

For more details visit our web site

peoples voice

peoplesvoice · 28-05-2008, 09:44 AM

peoples voice

You could take a look at this and see if it might be of interest to you ?

26-05-2008, 01:04 PM	#1 (permalink)
22ANDUK Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,438	Time for a Genuine Socialist Party? Does Britain need a new, genuinely socialist labour party? Before the cries of "More Socialism? Never!" allow me to explain... I'm asking if there needs to be a outwardly and honestly socialist movement, made up on leading decent and hard-working Socialist leaders, figures and members and that supports British independence and freedoms. Such a movement, that would genuinely have care and concern for the average man and woman not by necessarily taxing the wealthy or successful to the hilt - but instead by opposing total capitalist global policies, by being firm on the European Union and supporting withdrawal from the EU to prevent the ordinary British citizen being enslaved, also by supporting a tough stance on economic immigration to prevent the lowering of wages. A Socialist movement can still support independence and sovereignty, and can do some good. I'm imagining a movement that is led by figures with similar ideals to Tony Benn, Ernest Bevin, Nye Bevan, Arthur Scargill and Clement Atlee. In a modern context this movement could be fronted by people like Jon Cruddas (Roman Catholic and who supported restrictions on abortion), Austian Mitchell (who is a member of the 'Better Off Out' movement) or even someone such as Frank Field, who proposes sensible reforms of the Welfare State. I'm not saying that the figures mentioned above are exacctly what I had in mind, but they do refer to the sort of character that would be needed in British politics - outspoken, honest and forthright politically politicians who are millions miles away from the clones and drones of current mainstream party politics. Part of the reasoning behind is should withdrawal of the EU occur than party politics will undoubtedly rumble and groan on. More so a number of political parties Conservative, Liberal, Libertarian and of course Socialist will still be in existence. Rather than wait for the current Liberal Democrats, Labour or Conservative parties to just drag us back into it, they'll need to be a cross section of political views that will oppose EU membership. (Also practically speaking a schism within the ranks of the Left would divide up further their chances of government ) So whilst a strong and resurgent Socialist movement would be in conflict with UKIP ideals, at least the battle for a better Britain could go on without having to worry about the issue of the EU.

26-05-2008, 01:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
Dissident Congress Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 724	It seems strange why there isn't a "Traditional Labour Party" that is reasonably active. I don't mean a communist, or a Marxist, or a revolutionary party, but something along the lines of old Labour. Such a party probably wouldn't be much cop in strong BNP areas, but it could be a strong player in rock solid Labour areas that are very white with low immigration such as south Wales, South Yorkshire, or Durham. There was an article written by DC called "It's not Labour, it's Blair" that highlights the reason for the lack of a Traditional Labour Party resulting from an assumption amongst most Labour supporters that once Blair goes, Labour will revert back to old Labour principles, therefore rendering the creation of a new party as unnecessary. In the mid 1990s I read that Arthur Scargill's Socialist Labour Party would be serious challengers to Labour in their heartlands by the turn of the 21st century. It hasn't happened and the Socialist Labour Party appears to be in decline. It is unique amongst the left for being anti-EU. __________________ Dissident Congress Promoting Populist Patriotism Our Nation - Our People - Our Heritage - Our Future

26-05-2008, 02:37 PM	#4 (permalink)
Dissident Congress Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 724	Lack of proportional representation is a hindrance but less damaging than to UKIP or the Greens because support for a Traditional Labour Party is more concentrated in fewer areas whereas support for UKIP and the Greens is more thinly spread out. A Traditional Labour Party could probably win constituencies like Ogmore or Hull East, but they won't bother fielding candidates in constituencies like Surrey East or Buckingham. It would be interesting to watch a Traditional Labour Party fight an area where the BNP is strong such as Dagenham. Even more so if the Traditional Labour Party is anti-immigration and culturally very British. __________________ Dissident Congress Promoting Populist Patriotism Our Nation - Our People - Our Heritage - Our Future

27-05-2008, 07:23 AM	#5 (permalink)
Westcountryman Uber Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Westcountry. Posts: 5,922 Party: None	Make Socialism history! __________________ Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietam - "This hand of mine, which is hostile to tyrants, seeks by the sword quiet peace under liberty."

27-05-2008, 10:01 AM	#6 (permalink)
BonnieDundee Uber Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Between Mallaig and Cornwall. Posts: 2,658	Only if market fundamentalism and fanatical attachment to lockean property rights are made history as well WCM. In reality a reasonably libertarian and decentralist socialist movement may be a good thing. __________________ "It is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday facilitate a police state." -Bruce Schneier How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your TV; build your own cabin and pss off front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.* Edward Abbey Leopold Kohr.

26-05-2008, 02:10 PM	#3 (permalink)
22ANDUK Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,438	Indeed interesting points. I've always been a little sympathetic to genuine Socialism, despite not being a Socialist. I suppose there are a few factors - some being the ones you mentioned DC. Also, the lack of Proportional Representation would make it hard for such a Party to break through, like most other smaller or growing parties. However, yes, there is fertile territory across Britain for such a movement from Yorkshire to East London to South Wales and the North East, and I would include areas were the BNP are strong (such a movement would focus on policies and confront issues such as immigration and housing, offering a simialr movement without the apparent racial element). It was the 2001 General Election I believe that saw the St. Helen's constituency, a fiercely Labour area, elect the millionaire former Conservative Shaun Woodward over the Socialist Arthur Scargill, leader of the Socialist Labout Party. Perhaps the impending in-fighting will lead to a schism matching that of the late 70s and ealry 80s, this time with a Socialist "Gang of Four" breaking off, though political integrity and bravery is in shorter supply these days.

27-05-2008, 10:15 AM	#8 (permalink)
BonnieDundee Uber Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Between Mallaig and Cornwall. Posts: 2,658	Personally I prefer more libertarian policies which help to help more people to own productive property and tend to have a limiting effect on accumulation, particularly unproductive accumulation, such as a land value tax. __________________ "It is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday facilitate a police state." -Bruce Schneier How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your TV; build your own cabin and pss off front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.* Edward Abbey Leopold Kohr.

27-05-2008, 05:03 PM	#9 (permalink)
peoplesvoice Newbie Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 6 Party: Other	is this the sort of thing you might support ? Peoples voice is a political party that intends to contest parliamentary and local elections in the United Kingdom, including the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly. We are an un-registered party at the moment but intend to register. We have a set of policies, which we believe are popular. We do not set out to be all things to all people. We find the problem in the U.K. is that the three main political parties Labour, Conservatives Liberal Democrats are appealing to the same group of voters and the elector is denied real choice. Party politics has become a spectator sport with little involvement by the members, Conferences are held where no real decisions are made by members. For more details visit our web site peoples voice

28-05-2008, 09:44 AM	#10 (permalink)
peoplesvoice Newbie Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 6 Party: Other	Is this of interest possibly? peoples voice You could take a look at this and see if it might be of interest to you ?

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode