Question Time for a Genuine Socialist Party?

BonnieDundee · 03-06-2008, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Connor

So, you're calling my land unproductive then?

Nope, not necessarily.

BonnieDundee · 03-06-2008, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Connor

You're not getting it mate - you're the one who's annoying everyone. Now why don't you be a good little commie and fųck off.

Well seeing as I get on well with many people here, it seems more than you, how about I don't.

Smidgey · 03-06-2008, 01:28 AM

Bonnie Dundee, can I ask you why you keep referring to 'Lockean property rights'? There are plenty of libertarians (I might even say most) who are libertarians because of utilitarian reasons and not ethical ones (consider most of the Austrian and Chicago school economists as opposed to someone like Rothbard who is most certainly an ethical libertarian). Then there are those who are libertarians for both reasons (such as Bastiat or myself - not that I want to compare myself in any way to him).

Also, I would like to ask why you keep attacking us libertarians - I would wager that you have far more in common with us than you do with the conservatives, left-wingers or BNP members of this board, yet I rarely if ever see you arguing with them (unless of course I've not been paying attention).

BonnieDundee · 03-06-2008, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

Bonnie Dundee, can I ask you why you keep referring to 'Lockean property rights'? There are plenty of libertarians (I might even say most) who are libertarians because of utilitarian reasons and not ethical ones (consider most of the Austrian and Chicago school economists as opposed to someone like Rothbard who is most certainly an ethical libertarian). Then there are those who are libertarians for both reasons (such as Bastiat or myself - not that I want to compare myself in any way to him).

I know, the problem is that almost all seem to come to the same basic conclusions and have the same basic few axioms at the base of their thinking and whatever it is called it all seems to boil down to a version of sticky lockean property rights, whether because it is natural or is utilitarian, being the universal best system of property rights and the solution to almost all social and political problems. And most importantly power and authority within this framework is ignored and any attempt to address such things is attacked mercilessly.

Quote:

Also, I would like to ask why you keep attacking us libertarians - I would wager that you have far more in common with us than you do with the conservatives, left-wingers or BNP members of this board, yet I rarely if ever see you arguing with them (unless of course I've not been paying attention).

Well I like American style libertarian but I'm a broad libertarian who is interested in many different branches and I just find American style libertarians(although not you.) very intolerant. To show interest in geolibertarian ideas let alone anarchist or distributist, and I'll say it again; anything which doesn't go strictly along with sticky lockean property rights as the solution to most economic and political problems, is to be labelled a commie and to attacked viciously.

I wish to be their allies but they simply will not work with anyone like me whereas most other libertarians and decentralists are far more open in this respect. Even libertarian Marxists and class-war anarchists are anywhere near their general(and it is all general) intolerance and they are usually less intolerant.

Only some Rothbardians and Ancaps are more generally tolerant and that is because they are trying to gain legitimacy within the anarchist movement in which they are generally disliked.

John Connor · 03-06-2008, 11:06 AM

Sorry Dundee, but you ain't libertarian. You're a commie but simply aren't aware of that fact.

You speak of "libertarian Marxists", for example. There's no such thing, despite what your silly theories tell you - "libertarianism" and "Marxism" are the complete opposite of each other. Marxism requires that you be subservient to the whim of society and ignore your own true self, whilst libertarianism requires that you ignore the whim of society and be true to yourself.

You've illustrated this perfectly in this thread: Either you stop people from owning land because in society's opinion that land is not being used productively or you mind your own business and figure that society has no right to dictate to a landowner what he uses it for.

You subscribe to the tyranny of society - the exact opposite of libertarianism.

BonnieDundee · 04-06-2008, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Connor

Sorry Dundee, but you ain't libertarian. You're a commie but simply aren't aware of that fact.

You speak of "libertarian Marxists", for example. There's no such thing, despite what your silly theories tell you - "libertarianism" and "Marxism" are the complete opposite of each other. Marxism requires that you be subservient to the whim of society and ignore your own true self, whilst libertarianism requires that you ignore the whim of society and be true to yourself.

You've illustrated this perfectly in this thread: Either you stop people from owning land because in society's opinion that land is not being used productively or you mind your own business and figure that society has no right to dictate to a landowner what he uses it for.

You subscribe to the tyranny of society - the exact opposite of libertarianism.

It is amazing how you made such a statement without any kind of theoretical backup or intelligent analysis.

You are not a libertarian because you don't care about liberty, power, authority etc within the framework of the simplistic axioms, particularly the unviersal rule of sticky lockean property rights, you believe in.

This Smidgey is why I often attack American style libertarians despite my ultimate liking of many.

John Connor · 04-06-2008, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

It is amazing how you made such a statement without any kind of theoretical backup or intelligent analysis.

It doesn't need any theoretical backup or analysis. Anyone who's actually a libertarian will recognise my words as the truth.

Your requirement for "theoretical backup" further marks you out as a commie. You know, since only commies ever require theoretical proof of political standpoints.

BonnieDundee · 04-06-2008, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Connor

It doesn't need any theoretical backup or analysis. Anyone who's actually a libertarian will recognise my words as the truth.

Your requirement for "theoretical backup" further marks you out as a commie. You know, since only commies ever require theoretical proof of political standpoints.

Sorry John but that is classic. So only commies are capable of putting any kind of intelligent or theoretical basis behind their political views and you say yourself that you certainly have none of that behind your politican stances.

That is signature material.

BonnieDundee · 04-06-2008, 09:40 AM

Double post.

John Connor · 04-06-2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

Sorry John but that is classic. So only commies are capable of putting any kind of intelligent or theoretical basis behind their political views and you say yourself that you certainly have none of that behind your politican stances.

Only commies need to. Libertarian theory is all around you in the natural world - it doesn't require any theoretical basis since it's the default nature of things.

Self-referencing political theory, such as that which you subscribe to, is directly responsible for the vast majority of this World's troubles. Simply because you've managed to attach the word "libertarian" to your version of it doesn't mean that it's any different. So, feel proud to count yourself amongst the other meddling, theory-based halfwits.

03-06-2008, 01:28 AM	#33 (permalink)
Smidgey Uber Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 2,210 Party: Libertarian Party	Bonnie Dundee, can I ask you why you keep referring to 'Lockean property rights'? There are plenty of libertarians (I might even say most) who are libertarians because of utilitarian reasons and not ethical ones (consider most of the Austrian and Chicago school economists as opposed to someone like Rothbard who is most certainly an ethical libertarian). Then there are those who are libertarians for both reasons (such as Bastiat or myself - not that I want to compare myself in any way to him). Also, I would like to ask why you keep attacking us libertarians - I would wager that you have far more in common with us than you do with the conservatives, left-wingers or BNP members of this board, yet I rarely if ever see you arguing with them (unless of course I've not been paying attention). __________________ How vain is man, who boasts in fight the valour of gigantic might! -Georg Friedrich Händel Last edited by Smidgey; 03-06-2008 at 01:30 AM.

03-06-2008, 11:06 AM	#35 (permalink)
John Connor Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Hard Working Families' Socialist Republic of Untied Kingdomistan Posts: 1,040 Party: None	Sorry Dundee, but you ain't libertarian. You're a commie but simply aren't aware of that fact. You speak of "libertarian Marxists", for example. There's no such thing, despite what your silly theories tell you - "libertarianism" and "Marxism" are the complete opposite of each other. Marxism requires that you be subservient to the whim of society and ignore your own true self, whilst libertarianism requires that you ignore the whim of society and be true to yourself. You've illustrated this perfectly in this thread: Either you stop people from owning land because in society's opinion that land is not being used productively or you mind your own business and figure that society has no right to dictate to a landowner what he uses it for. You subscribe to the tyranny of society - the exact opposite of libertarianism. __________________ There are three types of people in this world: Libertarians, fascists and those who haven't been paying attention. Users on ignore list: Akria, Besoeker, Clippo, david H, Ian C.

04-06-2008, 09:40 AM	#39 (permalink)
BonnieDundee Uber Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Between Mallaig and Cornwall. Posts: 2,809	Double post. __________________ "It is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday facilitate a police state." -Bruce Schneier How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your TV; build your own cabin and pss off front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.* Edward Abbey Leopold Kohr.

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