List your parties in order of preference.

Smidgey · 28-04-2008, 10:29 AM

I just found a good quote from Bastiat concerning this. It shows clearly why someone of a libertarian stripe should not confuse the two:

"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain."

cassie · 28-04-2008, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alteclansing

1.UKIP
2. English Democrats although matt needs to go
3.Conservative

How prescient of you!

__________________

mkpdavies · 28-04-2008, 11:38 AM

Quote:

formerly free nation in the world 'anti-freedom' for the past five hundred years also.

I'm not sure there has ever been a totally free "nation". More free than most yes, but never totally free. People don't want freedom really, well not for others anyway.

British-Conservatism · 28-04-2008, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MVW

It's saddening that todays political climate seems to be radicalizing quite a lot of people to join an anti-freedom party like the BNP...

If we didn't have the history lesson from Germany in the 30's and 40's I'd be genuinely scared that the BNP would have a chance to take us down a similar path.

As for me , being a " trendy American style libertarian freidmanite " as BonnieDundee puts it , I suppose it'd be out of:

Libertarian , Liberal and UKIP. Pretty much why I am here tbh.

The BNP would offer more freedom than the main parties.
It would restore free speech for a start.

British-Conservatism · 28-04-2008, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by For_England

The BNP proposal to devolve government to the countries, including the proposal for citizen-initiated referenda at all levels of government, is far more pro-freedom than anything your three offers. More than that, freedom and democracy will never work in white-minority Britain, in which government will need to be strong and centralised just to stop internal conflicts, rampant crime, jihad and other wonderful benefits of multiculturalism. Freedoms are built upon the organic realities of shared history, culture, and nationhood (in its true sense), not artificial socities ready to fall apart at the seems as soon as the government frees its grip. So keep living in dream land and viewing things from a very narrow and misinformed ideological viewpoint.

This is why our freedoms can be best restored and preserved through a a Patriotic movement rather than a Libertarian one.

British-Conservatism · 28-04-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

If you mean the freedom of isolated individuals you are incorrect, the very idea of that is very recent. Humans first existed and for most of our history lived as troops or sub-tribes, then tribes arose and much later families and then very recently, as in post-1400 AD, the idea of isolated individuals. And it is interesting how the rise of the idea of freedom in terms of isolated individuals becoming popular coincided with the greatest increase in state power and size in history.

You aren't using logic, you aren't even giving proper arguments. You are giving out slogans and dubious ones at that. Your passage above simply states all society is a number of individuals with no explanation and then gives a dubious view of history and anthropology, not greatly impressive logic I must say.

Very good points.
Libertarians seem to see things in very dogmatic and unrealistic terms.
Their ideology is much like communism.

British-Conservatism · 28-04-2008, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

MVW, you are confating society and state. It does no good to the classical liberal cause to do this.

One of the floors of Libertarianism is that it would open the borders to large numbers of people who would vote against a Libertarian government.
Muslims for example or Blacks who would vote for a party that offers them affirmative action.

British-Conservatism · 28-04-2008, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

Let me list some:

1) National service - very anti-freedom, statist and anti-liberty.
2) Removing the vote of conscientious objectors - anti-liberty and basically amounts to punishing those who disagree with you so that they cannot vote agianst you.
3) Capital punishment - According to a libertarian, the state is not infallible, sorry...
4) They support a 'free' (or so they call it, Ha!), National Health Service - A socialistic leftist policy.
5) Control of agriculture and agricultural subsidies - little do they realise that many of these subsidies caused the problems in the first place, not to mention that it is anti-economic freedom.
6) Opposition to rail privatisation - This one's a no brainer.
7) Public schooling - not only do they support it, but they specifically mention that they are angered by the indoctrination of 'our children'. The ironic thing is, they then go on to argue in favour of indoctrination - just their kind this time!
8) Increase taxes on companies that outsource.
9) Centralising education.
10) Require supermarkets to stock British grown food - no doubt at great cost to everyone in Britain. Bastiat would be absolutely appalled.

11) Introduction of daily Christian assemblies into public schools - no thanks!
12) They wish to abolish university fees - how on earth are they going to pay for this whilst promising to lower taxes? It would seem that when a party has no chance of getting into power they can offer anything they want.
13) They support the continued use of council houses.
14) Invest in maglev trains - why on earth? This is just insanity.

I could go on.

Some of their policies are exceptionally vague as well.

Just looking at your list again.
If I where in charge of the BNP I suppose I could drop certain points of policy here which may make the party more attractive to Libertarians.

I could drop the following -

1) National service - very anti-freedom, statist and anti-liberty.
2) Removing the vote of conscientious objectors - anti-liberty and basically amounts to punishing those who disagree with you so that they cannot vote agianst you.
3) Capital punishment - According to a libertarian, the state is not infallible, sorry...
5) Control of agriculture and agricultural subsidies - little do they realise that many of these subsidies caused the problems in the first place, not to mention that it is anti-economic freedom.
11) Introduction of daily Christian assemblies into public schools - no thanks!
12) They wish to abolish university fees - how on earth are they going to pay for this whilst promising to lower taxes? It would seem that when a party has no chance of getting into power they can offer anything they want.
13) They support the continued use of council houses.
14) Invest in maglev trains - why on earth? This is just insanity.

But I could keep the rest.
A Right Wing education system in particular is essential.

MVW · 28-04-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

MVW, you are confating society and state. It does no good to the classical liberal cause to do this.

I guess you are correct looking back now. I should have left this discussion until a time that I had not been up for 20+ hours , or been to the pub :P

That said, the idea of freedom , for me, is no matter what society or the government says, they should not have the power to take my freedom away. So in that sense, society has no real meaning in my eyes. Indeed, if each individual in a so called society didn't interact at all, save for reproduction, there would be no society to speak of in general terms. Whether these individuals would survive or prosper is another matter altogether.

MVW · 28-04-2008, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

But I could keep the rest.

You'd still have a hard time encouraging libertarian minded people to vote for you.

28-04-2008, 10:29 AM	#81 (permalink)
Smidgey Uber Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 2,210 Party: Libertarian Party	I just found a good quote from Bastiat concerning this. It shows clearly why someone of a libertarian stripe should not confuse the two: "Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain." __________________ How vain is man, who boasts in fight the valour of gigantic might! -Georg Friedrich Händel

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