List your parties in order of preference.

Smidgey · 28-04-2008, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

On your points it's clear to me that the BNP would lose far more votes than it would gain by appealing to Libertarians.
Even in America a study, "The Libertarian Vote," which analyzed 16 years of polling data and found that libertarians constituted only 13 percent of the electorate in 2004.

Not to mention that it wouldn't be worth it what with the UKLP having recently been formed.

It is also clear that most people don't believe in liberty, which is a shame, but perhaps more exposure to such ideas would change that. I myself didn't even know what libertarianism was until I was 19 - I knew all the other ideologies. It was only due to a three week course on Robert Nozick that I was exposed.

Smidgey · 28-04-2008, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

We had a Right Wing education system up till the 1960's.

Can you please explain why this is the case?

Smidgey · 28-04-2008, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

Strange how over 90% of them vote for the party that gives them affirmative action the Democrats.

With 12.5% of the population of the USA, one of the lowest voter turnouts of any demographic and most of them residing in the Southern States, which return Republicans to the Congress and the Senate as well as giving electoral votes to the Republicans, it is hard to see what impact they really have on such issues. Consider that whites account for around 75% of US population and are one of (if not the) highest voting demographics, it makes one wonder whom really is responsible for creating affirmative action.

Take for example its first instance - J.F.K. A white president.

Quote:

As for Muslims well Muslims will of course will never vote Libertarian.

Why would a muslim never vote libertarian? I'm sure there must be some Muslim somewhere that would.

Quote:

My second main argument against Libertarianism other than this one on immigration is one of economics as Libertarians don’t believe in protecting the national economy or nationalist it allows foreign states or foreign multinationals to take over our companies and resources.
Then we have the situation where the Russians for example could shut down out gas supply on France could turn off our lights.
This of course would lesson or endanger our freedom not increase it.

This relies on one of the biggest misconceptions in socialist and left wing economics. You make the assumption (and a wrong one at that) that trade is about competition and competing with other nations. In fact, it is largely the exact opposite. You want other nations to do well so that they purchase your products at higher prices, thus making you richer.

Further, what incentive would France have to switch off the electricity to the UK? As for Russia and gas, that is a luck of the draw concerning natural resources and nothing to do with libertarian economics. Not to mention that you are making two assumptions:

1) That UK companies would stay the same or suffer under libertarianism and thus be bought out by other national companies (I believe that the opposite would be the case).
2) That the UK economy would not grow under libertarianism and thus would not have the economic power to make pushing it around a huge error. Consider again France, one of the UK's largest trading partners. I would most certainly not be in France's interest to damage the UK economy, and in turn damage its own (in fact, I don't believe that the French economy could take that much more damage in its current state).

Smidgey · 28-04-2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

I would want certain Libertarians to join in order to boost activist levels and donations but of course I wouldnt want them to influence policy.

In other words, you would want to use them?

For_England · 29-04-2008, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkpdavies

I'm not sure there has ever been a totally free "nation". More free than most yes, but never totally free. People don't want freedom really, well not for others anyway.

That's the point I wanted to bring out - that when libertarians on here say that the BNP is fascist, nazi, anti-freedom etc, that they are not saying anything they don't believe about any other political party in the past five hundred years. I was wanting to know if this mvw person believes that the BNP has distinctive views that make it 'anti-freedom', rather than just views that only libertarians object to.

Westcountryman · 29-04-2008, 01:48 AM

Parties in order of preference:

1. UKIP
2. Conservatives
3. Libertarian Party UK
4. I spoil my ballot paper.

British-Conservatism · 29-04-2008, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

Not to mention that it wouldn't be worth it what with the UKLP having recently been formed.

It is also clear that most people don't believe in liberty, which is a shame, but perhaps more exposure to such ideas would change that. I myself didn't even know what libertarianism was until I was 19 - I knew all the other ideologies. It was only due to a three week course on Robert Nozick that I was exposed.

I would say most UKIP members are not Libertarians.
A lot of activists are the party elite tend to be however.
Much like the Tory party.
As for Libertarianism I know all about it.
Libertarianism is responsible for the destruction of virtually every Conservative party in the Western World.

British-Conservatism · 29-04-2008, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

With 12.5% of the population of the USA, one of the lowest voter turnouts of any demographic and most of them residing in the Southern States, which return Republicans to the Congress and the Senate as well as giving electoral votes to the Republicans, it is hard to see what impact they really have on such issues. Consider that whites account for around 75% of US population and are one of (if not the) highest voting demographics, it makes one wonder whom really is responsible for creating affirmative action.

Take for example its first instance - J.F.K. A white president.

Why would a muslim never vote libertarian? I'm sure there must be some Muslim somewhere that would.

This relies on one of the biggest misconceptions in socialist and left wing economics. You make the assumption (and a wrong one at that) that trade is about competition and competing with other nations. In fact, it is largely the exact opposite. You want other nations to do well so that they purchase your products at higher prices, thus making you richer.

Further, what incentive would France have to switch off the electricity to the UK? As for Russia and gas, that is a luck of the draw concerning natural resources and nothing to do with libertarian economics. Not to mention that you are making two assumptions:

1) That UK companies would stay the same or suffer under libertarianism and thus be bought out by other national companies (I believe that the opposite would be the case).
2) That the UK economy would not grow under libertarianism and thus would not have the economic power to make pushing it around a huge error. Consider again France, one of the UK's largest trading partners. I would most certainly not be in France's interest to damage the UK economy, and in turn damage its own (in fact, I don't believe that the French economy could take that much more damage in its current state).

Former UK companies that Thatcher sold are now very often in foreign hands.
Oil and Gas for example is a ridiculous situation where these companies sell our oil resources and gas resources abroad then we have to import from the likes of Russia.
We should be trying to become self sufficient.
As for trade it's very much about competition between nations Russia and China understand this totally.
Hence why Russia is nationalising huge swaths of its energy industry and now trying to nationalise ours.
National independence depends on economic independence.

British-Conservatism · 29-04-2008, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

In other words, you would want to use them?

Of course.

Westcountryman · 29-04-2008, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

Former UK companies that Thatcher sold are now very often in foreign hands.
Oil and Gas for example is a ridiculous situation where these companies sell our oil resources and gas resources abroad then we have to import from the likes of Russia.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we export it because it fetches a higher price than what we buy it in for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

Hence why Russia is nationalising huge swaths of its energy industry and now trying to nationalise ours.

You do realise that if it ever came to it and a foreign owned company in the UK tried to shut own something like energy production (which I agree with Smidgey - would never happen, it's not compatible with the profit motive), that we could just nationalise the necessary infrastructure and start producing energy again?

29-04-2008, 01:48 AM	#106 (permalink)
Westcountryman Uber Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Westcountry. Posts: 5,922 Party: None	Parties in order of preference: 1. UKIP 2. Conservatives 3. Libertarian Party UK 4. I spoil my ballot paper. __________________ Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietam - "This hand of mine, which is hostile to tyrants, seeks by the sword quiet peace under liberty."

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