Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

One of the floors of Libertarianism is that it would open the borders to large numbers of people who would vote against a Libertarian government.
Muslims for example or Blacks who would vote for a party that offers them affirmative action.

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

Just looking at your list again.
If I where in charge of the BNP I suppose I could drop certain points of policy here which may make the party more attractive to Libertarians.

I could drop the following -

1) National service - very anti-freedom, statist and anti-liberty.
2) Removing the vote of conscientious objectors - anti-liberty and basically amounts to punishing those who disagree with you so that they cannot vote agianst you.
3) Capital punishment - According to a libertarian, the state is not infallible, sorry...
5) Control of agriculture and agricultural subsidies - little do they realise that many of these subsidies caused the problems in the first place, not to mention that it is anti-economic freedom.
11) Introduction of daily Christian assemblies into public schools - no thanks!
12) They wish to abolish university fees - how on earth are they going to pay for this whilst promising to lower taxes? It would seem that when a party has no chance of getting into power they can offer anything they want.
13) They support the continued use of council houses.
14) Invest in maglev trains - why on earth? This is just insanity.

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

Very good points.
Libertarians seem to see things in very dogmatic and unrealistic terms.
Their ideology is much like communism.

Originally Posted by MVW

I guess you are correct looking back now. I should have left this discussion until a time that I had not been up for 20+ hours , or been to the pub :P

That said, the idea of freedom , for me, is no matter what society or the government says, they should not have the power to take my freedom away. So in that sense, society has no real meaning in my eyes. Indeed, if each individual in a so called society didn't interact at all, save for reproduction, there would be no society to speak of in general terms. Whether these individuals would survive or prosper is another matter altogether.

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

And many other people know of it, the American usage is unfortunately spreading but it hasn't conquered the world quite yet. It is still in use throughout most of the world except for America and those influenced by American political fringes. You are no doubt influenced by the American political system but the broader definition which has suffered there(but is not entirely wiped out.) has not been extinguished here, most Britain's don't yet associate the word with Milton Friedman or Hayek unless they spend time on American message boards, and I don't wish to see it distinguished. It is a very useful word and I hope to support a successful rearguard action to stop the halt of American style becoming the exclusive usage here.




I keep bringing it up because in the UK I don't want to see that word being exclusively used by American style libertarians. This is still an equally popular usage in the UK, particularly among those cut-off from American political message boards and I want to defend this usage.

Because in the UK I want to use the word libertarian without instantly being thought of as a Freidmanite or Randriod. If you admit that the word libertarian can have a much wider usage than these currents of it then that is fine. Let's not forget other usages, on a global scale, still are as numerous if unfortunately declining.

Also although I am influenced by American style libertarian thinkers and have read many works by them but I know my decentralist and libertarian history and know that other usages have a much more interesting theoretical and practical core than alot of those who adhere to the American usage.

Globally other usages are still as numerous and to answer your questions I fully intend to keep up telling people of the other usages and to try and stop the word being exclusively claimed by one current.

Originally Posted by Ayn Rand

"Socialism is the doctrine that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that his life and his work do not belong to him, but belong to society, that the only justification of his existence is his service to society, and that society may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good."

Originally Posted by Smidgey

I guarantee under a libertarian society we would get less immigration than we do now.

However, we would still get some (and I don't mind entirely), but that's a different argument and one I don't really want to have here.

However, I do take issue with your claim that blacks would vote for affirmative action. Take for example the USA, you will find that the vast majority of the time African Americans never wanted affirmative action in the first place. Milton Friedman had a good television show called 'Free to Choose', I'm sure you've heard of it. In it he has a discussion with a black economist on this very subject. I can't remember which episode it is, but either way, it is still a very interesting series.

Originally Posted by Smidgey

Why do you want libertarians in the BNP so much?

I still wouldn't be willing to vote for them if they kept those policies. Particularly since you left the supermarkets stocking British food one, which I think is one of the worst policies in there (apart from national service or the death penalty). I think it hurts Britain and the British people far more than it helps them.



But there is no such thing as a right wing education so long as you have a state run education system. That is a left wing proposal.

It is extremely paradoxical.

Originally Posted by Smidgey

Why do you want libertarians in the BNP so much?

I still wouldn't be willing to vote for them if they kept those policies. Particularly since you left the supermarkets stocking British food one, which I think is one of the worst policies in there (apart from national service or the death penalty). I think it hurts Britain and the British people far more than it helps them.



But there is no such thing as a right wing education so long as you have a state run education system. That is a left wing proposal.

It is extremely paradoxical.

Originally Posted by Smidgey

That's just nonsense and you know it. Did you even read my response to The Bear? It is extremely typical that someone of a collectivist leaning would lump everyone into the same group because of what one libertarian/classical liberal said.

MVW and I may agree on many things, but that does not mean you can assume we are identical to one another. In fact, I disagreed with him in this very thread.

Again, if you hate freedom and liberty so much, why on earth do you want libertarians to join the BNP?

Originally Posted by MVW

You'd still have a hard time encouraging libertarian minded people to vote for you.