Vortex

Mind you the Liberals are interesting, they must be the only party in Briish history to have had a leader stand trial for conspiracy to murder and shooting other people's dogs!

Tom Wilde

I have never doubted it.

Tolerance, like democracy, is something which is learned rather than something which is in the blood. The British have spent a long time learning tolerance, and have gradually become quite good at it. Of course, some are slower learners than other.

Tom Wilde

Yes, even though he was acquitted it has dogged him ever since.

Vortex

A cheap point I know Tom, but I couldn't resist it. Actually, I feel quite sorry for Jeremy Thorpe, he was a fine speaker and held views which he passionately talked about. I heard him speak at a Liberal rally at Hove Town Hall in 1973 during the Hove By-Election. He was hounded by the press, and although acquitted, his association with Norman Scott tarnished him to the end.

Ironically the same people who now rush to establish their pro-gay credentials were strangely silent, when this man needed their support.

British-Conservatism

If he had tried to murder a female ex-lover I doubt he would have got away so lightly.

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http://conservativedemocraticalliance.blogspot.com/

Dissident Congress

What you Liberals don't seem to be able to comprehend is that Islam is the central issue that has propelled the BNP to the level it is at today. After 9/11 and a uprising of Islamic extremism at home and abroad, an increasing number of people are worried about the safety of themselves and their loved ones. The establishment panders to the interests of ethnic Muslims in Britain and is soft touch when it comes to obnoxious or criminal behavior exhibited by Muslims. If 9/11 and subsequent Islamic terrorist attacks never happened and ethnic Muslims in Britain held the same low profile as ten years ago, then the Liberal Party might have been larger than the BNP today.

A high proportion of recent recruits to the BNP and its supporters are not patriots and are probably more in tune with the Liberal Party's policies than the BNP's policies. Why do they support the BNP and not the Liberal Party? Because the Liberal Party will not crack down on Islamic extremism whereas the BNP will. Most of these new recruits and supporters are not racist and think that most non-Muslim ethnics can successfully and harmoniously integrate into British society but Muslims can't.

Maybe if the Liberal Party adopted a policy of banning Islam outright in Britain on the grounds that the Koran preaches illiberal actions then the BNP would rapidly shrink down to the core of undemocratic intolerant bigots you like to portray it as, and the recently recruited anti-Islamic social liberals will be fighting elections under the banner of the Liberal Party.

Please comment on this Tom Wilde.

Tom Wilde

Are you really sure you want me to? Okay, let's start here:

High? Uncharitably, I'd put it at 100%. However, then I calm down and remember that quite a few BNP supporters probably are patriots, and have simply been misled as to the nature of the party. Okay, let's try again....

This clearly implies that these non-patriotic supporters of the BNP would be happier in the Liberal Party, as the Liberal Party isn't patriotic either. However, the implication, while clear, is utterly wrong. Most Liberals are very attached to this country. Rightly or wrongly we believe that Liberal policies are the right ones to ensure Britain's independence and the freedom and prosperity of its people. You may have a quite different conception of patriotism to me, but you'd be wrong to assume that I have no conception of patriotism at all.

Actually, I agree that the BNP's stance on Islam is the main reason that it did so well up until 2006 (and may do well again, possibly). I don't think it is the only issue, but I think it is the main one. Sadly, even in Britain intolerance is a vote-winner, up to a certain point. However, it will take them so far and no further, thank goodness. I say intolerance because while most people blame the terrorism on Islamic extremists, the BNP try to blame it on all Muslims, and frame their policies accordingly. It's a bit like if you went to Morocco on holiday and some crank started yelling that you should be locked up because you were a "crusader".

And rightly so - there are some crazy people out there, and some of them want to kill us! Statistically, you have far more chance of getting knocked down by a car, but that doesn't mean that the threat of Islamic nationalist terrorists isn't real. Nonetheless, the threat has been exaggerated by Labour politicians to push through some very repressive legislation.

I personally have had a number of close friends who have been very well-integrated, very patriotic Britons while simultaneously being not only Muslims but religiously-observant Muslims at that. Therefore I know from direct personal experience that your assertion that Muslims can't integrate into British society is simply incorrect.

If we did that, we wouldn't be a Liberal party, would we? We don't go around banning ideas we disagree with. That's the whole point!

gina

He was one of the establishment and probably used to bum the judge at Eton!

Dissident Congress

The thing is, most British people only have a very superficial understanding of Islam the religion, but they FEAR it because of what Muslims have been doing in the real world. If the tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims continue - whether it is international terrorism or ethnic Muslims in Britain breeding like rabbits and taking over more and more of our towns with mosques and assaulting white people - then it will provide plenty of fuel for the BNP. The situation is intensified by all the anti-Islamic websites mainly operated by American Zionists which portray Islam as a wicked vicious religion, Mohammed's 8th century death cult, or the new Nazis.

This situation is not going to go away in the future but will worsen. If the BNP are not the beneficiaries of it then some other anti-Islamic party will be.

9/11 ushered in a new cold war. The tensions on the streets of Britain between ethnic Muslims and native whites have created a new Northern Ireland. Perhaps you Liberals in Liverpool and the Wyre Forest don't have the second of these in your face all the time, but go to parts of West Yorkshire or the Midlands and you will have it in your face. This situation is very frightening for native white people and the establishment are doing nothing about it whilst appeasing the ethnic Muslims with cultural events and slap on the wrist penalties for committing serious crimes complete with media blackouts of what happened.

I'm not saying that Muslims can't integrate into British society. It is certain figures in the BNP that are saying this ranging from senior officers down to rank and file members. I personally support freedom of religion and believe that it is possible to be both a British patriot and a Muslim simultaneously. I can also see big differences between the culture and behaviour of white Muslims of British / European origin and ethnic Muslims living in Britain. This is why I have been enquiring here about what the BNP policy really is on Islam and whether white British Muslims can still join the party like they could 10 years ago.

Have you or anybody else in the Liberal Party ever read the Koran?

I have read the Koran and will assure you that promotes a very illiberal doctrine almost certainly opposing much of what the Liberal Party stands for. If the traditionally not very liberal BNP are saying that large parts of the Koran are incompatible with a civilised and democratic society and the British way of life, then surely a stanch Liberal would believe it is almost the word of Satan.

Tom Wilde

Then the answer is to improve people's understanding of Islam so that they can see the vast ideological gulf separating Islamic nationalist terrorists from other Muslims. This may not be such a good short-term vote winner as the BNP scare tactic of smearing all Muslims as being the same - but it is a lot more honest.

So you think we should get into a competition with the BNP to see who can lie most outrageously about Muslims? I don't think so.


I assume by ethnic Muslims you mean ones belonging to ethnic minorities? Well, I don't live in Liverpool or Wyre Forest - I live in one of the most racially mixed boroughs of London. We have all sorts of tensions here - but mostly to do with fear of being mugged on the way back from the tube, or fights between gangs of schoolchildren. None of the problems seem to involve Muslims to any significant degree, and there isn't much racial animosity generally. In that respect, the area is a model of harmony. (Well almost - I did hear that there has occasionally in the past been some argy-bargy between Vietnamese and black Carribean teens - but presumably none of those involved were Muslims.)


I have read some bits of it, but not all. (Haven't read the entire Bible either. Who has the time?)

I once knew a Muslim woman who did an academic study on the status of women in Islam. Her conclusion was that the Koran is pretty forward looking on women's equality, and it was misunderstandings of the Koran by the tribes in 7th century Arabia which are to blame. They read into the Koran all the various repressive attitudes they already had previously about the place of women, what they could and couldn't do, what they should wear, etc etc. Much of which 'illiberal stuff' then became incorporated in sharia law. She gave me various examples. Anyway, this is handy because the Koran is fixed and unchangeable (being supposedly the direct words of God) but the interpretations of God's will are agreed to be human inventions and can be changed by scholarship and argument. Which is what is gradually happening. So I would say that as a liberal I have nothing against Islam itself but that I greatly prefer some interpretations of Islam over others.