UKIP Branch Chairman Speaks at BNP Meeting

Hunter · 28-02-2008, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

The BNP's 18 years of National Socialism is what holds most people back from joining it seems.
A party that has changed it's ideology but not it's name.

The BNP is NOT a Nationalist Socialist Party. It is a Nationalist Party. Therein lies the difference. If nothing else, British subjects know who we are and what we stand for. Anyone who has supported the three mainstream Parties will have no idea what their Party stands for from year to year. Even the UKIP have fallen into the trap of confusing the electorate as to what they represent.

twizzel · 28-02-2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Albert, well done, but I also have military time served under my belt and don't wear my medal when I give talks (16 years full time commissioned service and 18 months as a TA infantryman - officers don't get long service or good conduct medals). My medal, GSM with Northern Ireland clasp, comes out once a year for Remembrance Sunday to remind me of the many young men who I will not be meeting again in this lifetime.

Long service as a Special Constable is laudable, but it is not a legal qualification. What was your 'real job'? What are your academic qualifications?

You wrote to me about Bracton, the thirteenth century plagiarist, as if he was current. Your copy of Hood Phillips is several print runs out of date. What current law do you know or have access to?

I can read what more do you require the lastest constitutional and admiinstrative law books I own were published in 2003/4

For_England · 28-02-2008, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

The BNP's 18 years of National Socialism is what holds most people back from joining it seems.
A party that has changed it's ideology but not it's name.

Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but I can't see that they have changed their core economic and national ideology. They are still distributist economically - a middle way between socialism and laissez-faire capitalism, and still believe in ethnic nationalism. They have gotten rid of core ideas such as Jewish conspiracy and holocaust denial, however. A change of name would be a good way of signifying that change - perhaps simply the national party or something similar, but I don't think there is an appreciation within the BNP of the value of cosmetic changes - look at the fact that they retain Collett, for example. In our day and age image is just as important as substance, and I personally find the BNP logo quite distasteful - it evokes (in me at least, though I'm not the only one I've heard this from) images of skinhead bother boys with doc martins - the flag should be unfurled in a proud way, not the background to letters, and certainly not used in a way to give those letters sharp edges! Little changes like this can make a big difference to a lot of people, but I think the BNP prefer to blame Searchlight and the media for their poor image. Yes, of course there is truth in this, but there are many self-inflicted wounds as well.

Aardvark · 28-02-2008, 06:55 PM

I'm trying to keep up. Quisling? A very grave insult, Barnby would be running to lawyers, but I can rise above such petty insults. I spurn the insult as I would spurn a rabid dog!

If the documents are full of 'mens rea' you must be aware that it is not a collective thing, but the mens rea of each individual accused. A civil servant can have the intent to commit a crime and brief a minister to do something he would not wish to do if he had the correct brief: the minister is negligent, but not criminal. Perhaps you should have made a specific complaint against one, living, named civil servant. Blanket allegations never work in my opinion.

If the solicitors have looked at it, why did they not push it to leading counsel for an opinion (as you know on complex issues like this the solicitors can only give advice backed by counsel's opinion)?

Why, if you are correct, did the solicitors look at it and allow a French polisher to process one of the most complex legal issues of the century?

Why are you doing this so badly? You could have taken Barnby's research, which is indeed creditable, and prepared a proper working paper that could have been distributed widely. Viral marketing works.

Instead of going for treason or sedition you should have gone for misfeasance in public office against a couple of people. As a former Special Constable you know that police often press the lesser charge they can win rather than pursuing the impossible. By going for prosecution you have to rely on the police or CPS. If you brought a private prosecution CPS would take it over and drop it. If you had brought a civil action as person with an interest in the matter and with locus standi you would have got it into court and the other side would have had to try to get it struck out. You'd have got the publicity and some of the evidence would have got into the press who would have then asked for more.

Before going off half-cocked as you have done, think about what you're doing.

twizzel · 28-02-2008, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Albert, as a result of your decision I have decided to stand against UKIP at the next GE.

You are wrong.

If you and Barnby and others are right get some money together and get proper legal advice. You won't because you'll be told that you have not been able to demonstrate a 'guilty mind' (mens rea as was). You have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the people you accuse committed the offence and that they knew they were doing it. You do not have that evidence and the fact that 80 people have wandered into police stations to make allegations that they cannot support is not a cause for pride.

PAUL WESSON I have decided that this game has gone on long enough I really don't care what you think but you might like to try living up to the oath you say you took as an army officer and join the side trying to defend this country. I do not have to hide behind another name I am happy to tell anyone who I am. Good night and good by.

Aardvark · 28-02-2008, 08:22 PM

twizzel, I respect your decision not to hide behind another name.

I am a Royal Air Force officer, not Army, perish the thought, on the reserve list until I'm 55. I took my oath as a TA Fusilier and have a commissioning scroll. I know where my duty lies and it is not in wasting police time with pointless cases unsupported by real evidence. I gave you good advice just before you went off in a huff.

I have always been on the side trying to defend this country and, if called, I could still go to war. I am not an enemy of this country just because I don't subscribe to your pet theory.

I have now been insulted by Gerrish, Noakes, Barnby and Burgess because I won't go along with their conspiracies. Why can't people continue to debate when they're losing? Why won't these people get proper legal advice?

gimlet · 28-02-2008, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Albert, as a result of your decision I have decided to stand against UKIP at the next GE.

I thought you couldn't stand for UKIP anyway:

Quote:

Aardvark Count Nikolai Dimitrevich Tolstoy-Miloslavsky, a Russian citizen, former bankrupt and the person ordered to pay the highest libel damages in UK history is the candidate for Witney at the next General Election. He is 72 years old and in that time has never lived in the constituency and has never raised a finger to assist a single person in the area. His speech to the branch was disingenuous in places.

If you Google Pravda and Nikolai Tolstoy you should find the article where he decries the English middle classes and states a preference for Russia.

I of course have only sat for 4 years on the local district council, 8 years on my town council, 5 years on the local PCT and several years on the Schools Admission Appeals Panel. Tolstoy has never achieved either the same vote as me nor the same percentage vote.

Since I will not vote for someone who was born a British citizen and opted to take citizenship of a foreign country he had not lived in, as Tolstoy did, and since I only vote for people who I believe will serve the interests of the constituency and the people therein I will have to think long and hard about where I cast my vote. Tolstoy has fought Wantage (no branch) 3 times and is carpetbagging Witney (small active branch) because he wants the publicity of fighting Cameron (must have a book out soon).

I'm not happy.

chikrodah · 28-02-2008, 09:27 PM

Seeing as Rugby has a PPC who lives in Staffordshire, it's reasonable to suppose Aardvark would have been able to stand as a PPC for UKIP elsewhere, if duely selected.

Not being selected as PPC doesn't prevent one from standing in local parish, town or district elections either, IIRC.

I believe there are still local elections in May this year?

Independent UKIP · 28-02-2008, 10:38 PM

I see article 4.5 of the UKIP constitution says:

Quote:

4.5 Members shall accept the Party's constitution and rules made in accordance with this constitution and do nothing to undermine the reputation of the Party or to bring the Party into public disrepute. Nor shall they act in a manner intended to cause, or actually causing, damage to the Party's interests including by breaching confidentiality.

I'm sure twizzel would not think he is in breach of this rule by his actions highlighted in the first post of this topic and would not appreciate my raising the concept. I'm not going to make any complaint, especially considering how many leaders of the party could also be in breach for different reasons, but that doesn't mean that I don't think the rule might have been breached.

gimlet · 28-02-2008, 10:52 PM

Albert is doing the right thing, and has always maintained he would speak to any groups about his initiative - no censorship of his message, to get the maximum impact. It seems at times that there is the left wing hang up about the BNP with UKIP members. Do I undermine UKIP if I speak to the ex UKIP members who now are with the BNP?

The reporting of treason has now been accepted in some stations and I think also charges against Brown as well. So no matter how, certain people, try to trash this initiative at least it is a positive step which will have an impact. As an aside, NF went to the lib-dem conference, was that wise? No pun intended!

28-02-2008, 06:55 PM	#24 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,692	I'm trying to keep up. Quisling? A very grave insult, Barnby would be running to lawyers, but I can rise above such petty insults. I spurn the insult as I would spurn a rabid dog! If the documents are full of 'mens rea' you must be aware that it is not a collective thing, but the mens rea of each individual accused. A civil servant can have the intent to commit a crime and brief a minister to do something he would not wish to do if he had the correct brief: the minister is negligent, but not criminal. Perhaps you should have made a specific complaint against one, living, named civil servant. Blanket allegations never work in my opinion. If the solicitors have looked at it, why did they not push it to leading counsel for an opinion (as you know on complex issues like this the solicitors can only give advice backed by counsel's opinion)? Why, if you are correct, did the solicitors look at it and allow a French polisher to process one of the most complex legal issues of the century? Why are you doing this so badly? You could have taken Barnby's research, which is indeed creditable, and prepared a proper working paper that could have been distributed widely. Viral marketing works. Instead of going for treason or sedition you should have gone for misfeasance in public office against a couple of people. As a former Special Constable you know that police often press the lesser charge they can win rather than pursuing the impossible. By going for prosecution you have to rely on the police or CPS. If you brought a private prosecution CPS would take it over and drop it. If you had brought a civil action as person with an interest in the matter and with locus standi you would have got it into court and the other side would have had to try to get it struck out. You'd have got the publicity and some of the evidence would have got into the press who would have then asked for more. Before going off half-cocked as you have done, think about what you're doing. __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

28-02-2008, 08:22 PM	#26 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,692	twizzel, I respect your decision not to hide behind another name. I am a Royal Air Force officer, not Army, perish the thought, on the reserve list until I'm 55. I took my oath as a TA Fusilier and have a commissioning scroll. I know where my duty lies and it is not in wasting police time with pointless cases unsupported by real evidence. I gave you good advice just before you went off in a huff. I have always been on the side trying to defend this country and, if called, I could still go to war. I am not an enemy of this country just because I don't subscribe to your pet theory. I have now been insulted by Gerrish, Noakes, Barnby and Burgess because I won't go along with their conspiracies. Why can't people continue to debate when they're losing? Why won't these people get proper legal advice? __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008 Last edited by Aardvark; 28-02-2008 at 08:28 PM.

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28-02-2008, 09:27 PM	#28 (permalink)
chikrodah Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Midlands Posts: 1,525	Seeing as Rugby has a PPC who lives in Staffordshire, it's reasonable to suppose Aardvark would have been able to stand as a PPC for UKIP elsewhere, if duely selected. Not being selected as PPC doesn't prevent one from standing in local parish, town or district elections either, IIRC. I believe there are still local elections in May this year?

28-02-2008, 10:52 PM	#30 (permalink)
gimlet Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Shropshire Posts: 824	Albert is doing the right thing, and has always maintained he would speak to any groups about his initiative - no censorship of his message, to get the maximum impact. It seems at times that there is the left wing hang up about the BNP with UKIP members. Do I undermine UKIP if I speak to the ex UKIP members who now are with the BNP? The reporting of treason has now been accepted in some stations and I think also charges against Brown as well. So no matter how, certain people, try to trash this initiative at least it is a positive step which will have an impact. As an aside, NF went to the lib-dem conference, was that wise? No pun intended!