"Tories may back private referendum on EU Constitution 2 if Brown doesn't give in"

Little Englander (sour) · 31-07-2007, 10:00 PM

To compare a referendum in Gibraltar with a referendum in the UK is ludicrous for many reasons not least the relative size of population.

My point was that the government took no notice of the result of the "regionalisation" referendum carried out in the north east of England, why would they take any notice of a private effort.

Britannist · 01-08-2007, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Englander (sour)

To compare a referendum in Gibraltar with a referendum in the UK is ludicrous for many reasons not least the relative size of population.

My point was that the government took no notice of the result of the "regionalisation" referendum carried out in the north east of England, why would they take any notice of a private effort.

I agree that it is alot easier to hold a private referendum in Gibraltar (population about 30, 000 people) than it is to organise one across the whole of the UK - but the Gibraltar referendum did force Straw/Labour/Bliar to back down (on their EU-backed plot to sell-out British Gibraltar to Spain).

Little Englander (sour): Are you absolutely sure the UK Labour Government did not take any notice of the referendum result in November 2004 in the north-east of England (on setting up an elected assembly)?

Unless I mistaken, Labour Deputy Prescott had to call off his plan to hold a similar referendum in the so-called 'region' of 'Yorkshire-Humberside' when the result came up as a great big loud 'No' in the referendum he organised at great cost to the public purse in the Labour 'stronghold' of the north-east.

I would suggest that not just the 'No' vote in the north-east - but the size of it (the biggest 'No' ever in any referendum held in any part of the UK) - did deter Labour from proceeding with the EU plan for the unwanted elected 'regional' assemblies.

Little Englander (sour): In answer to your question about a private referendum (i.e. "Why would the Government take any notice of it") - I think that if the UK Labour Government had to take notice of the north-east referendum result it could not ignore a huge 'No' vote by millions of people in a postal referendum on the EU Constitution version 2. Especially with the Prime Minister possibly (if reports are true) presently considering holding an early General Election and, therefore, very keen not to upset the voters.

If a private referendum on the EU Constitution version 2 were held before Brown calls a General Election a large 'No' (to the EU Constitution version 2) vote in it would surely concentrate his mind.

More so if (as I think someone else suggested earlier in this thread) the 'No' vote in such a private referendum were larger than the total number of people who voted Labour at the last UK General Election.

Brown would not want the matter of the EU (and the EU Constitution version 2) to be a key General Election issue - but that is exactly what a big 'No' vote in a private postal referendum would make it.

Little Englander (sour) · 01-08-2007, 11:55 AM

The use of so many words to make such a small point smacks of panic, we're all wrong from time to time.

Britannist · 01-08-2007, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Englander (sour)

The use of so many words to make such a small point smacks of panic, we're all wrong from time to time.

I don't 'do' panic - and my last posting was long partly for the benefit of other readers new to the thread.

I also thought that by spending some time in making a detailed reply to your points I was being courteous. Obviously you thought different.

And I am not wrong - the north-east of England 'No' vote was so big it shook the Labour regime which (up to that point) thought it could walk on water. They had stated clearly they wanted to go on to have a referendum in Yorkshire-'Humberside' and had to abandon it after the north-east rejected their elected assembly plan.

As someone else pointed out in this thread - if more people vote in a private referendum against the EU Constitution version 2 than did vote Labour at the last General Election, then this mob in power will be in even bigger trouble on the EU issue than they are now.

rjt · 01-08-2007, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g hall

Why don't the Tories smell the coffee and wake up and get us out of the EUSSR

Possibly because they have never won an election when they have adopted a euro sceptic position, only when they have taken a pro eu stance since we went in have they been succesfull.

rjt · 01-08-2007, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkpdavies

If you could get GE equal turnout it would be worthwhile.

I think this would be crucial but would take some organising and would mean people working across what are normal tribal political boundaries.

I would only be intrested if the private referendum could be seen as truly national, all parts of Britian joining in.

mkpdavies · 01-08-2007, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Possibly because they have never won an election when they have adopted a euro sceptic position, only when they have taken a pro eu stance since we went in have they been succesfull

Their position on the EU has never had much bearing on the result.

That is a sad fact. When they get a leader who starts sounding anti-EU, they use any excuse they can find to boot them out. If they can't find one, they create one.

rjt · 01-08-2007, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkpdavies

Their position on the EU has never had much bearing on the result.

That is a sad fact. When they get a leader who starts sounding anti-EU, they use any excuse they can find to boot them out. If they can't find one, they create one.

Indeed, normally because they are seen in opinon polls as right wing and extreme so they think they will lose.

As soon as Lady T went Euro scepitic they booted her out, Hague fought on a Euro sceptic ticket and as soon as he lost they turned on him. And Duncan Smith was fired before he fought an election. With Major it was a bit diffrent , he tried to appease the euro sceptics and his party was seen as divided and went down to a defeat they have no where yet recovered from.

mkpdavies · 01-08-2007, 01:10 PM

Your definition of appease is different to mine.

Britannist · 01-08-2007, 01:12 PM

My view is that the Conservative Party has performed badly at the polls when led by europhiles. Quite simply, the europhile impostors in the Conservative Party are vote losers.

Heath won in 1970 by hiding the fact he was an extreme europhile. Before that General Election he only said he would start negotiations on entering the EEC/EU - not that within two years the UK would be in it without even a referendum. He also received the pre-election endorsement of the leading anti-EU campaigner Enoch Powell (something Mr. Powell said he regretted later).

Europhile Major only won in 1992 because that General Election became a national referendum on "Do you want Kinnock as Prime Minister - or not?" Understandably - people did not want Kinnock and voted Conservative to keep him out.

As we know, pro-EU Major took the Conservatives to their worst General Election defeat in 1997 for 150 years.

So, europhile 'Conservative' Heath lost three out of four General Elections (only winning in 1970 with the endorsement of a popular anti-EU politician).

And pro-EU Major scraped through in 1992 but lost massively five years later - nearly destroying the Conservative Party in the process.

The fact remains that the Conservative Party have not won a General Election since the formation of UKIP - it is hard for the Conservatives to win without the pro-sovereignty vote. I think some Conservative realise this - but Major and the Cameron-team have risked losing the pro-sovereignty vote assuming they could replace it with 'liberal' votes instead.

This, of course, we always knew would not work - and all recent opinion polls confirm that we are right.

01-08-2007, 01:10 PM	#19 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	Your definition of appease is different to mine. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

01-08-2007, 01:12 PM	#20 (permalink)
Britannist Uber Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: London Posts: 22,896	Europhiles in the Conservative Party lose votes My view is that the Conservative Party has performed badly at the polls when led by europhiles. Quite simply, the europhile impostors in the Conservative Party are vote losers. Heath won in 1970 by hiding the fact he was an extreme europhile. Before that General Election he only said he would start negotiations on entering the EEC/EU - not that within two years the UK would be in it without even a referendum. He also received the pre-election endorsement of the leading anti-EU campaigner Enoch Powell (something Mr. Powell said he regretted later). Europhile Major only won in 1992 because that General Election became a national referendum on "Do you want Kinnock as Prime Minister - or not?" Understandably - people did not want Kinnock and voted Conservative to keep him out. As we know, pro-EU Major took the Conservatives to their worst General Election defeat in 1997 for 150 years. So, europhile 'Conservative' Heath lost three out of four General Elections (only winning in 1970 with the endorsement of a popular anti-EU politician). And pro-EU Major scraped through in 1992 but lost massively five years later - nearly destroying the Conservative Party in the process. The fact remains that the Conservative Party have not won a General Election since the formation of UKIP - it is hard for the Conservatives to win without the pro-sovereignty vote. I think some Conservative realise this - but Major and the Cameron-team have risked losing the pro-sovereignty vote assuming they could replace it with 'liberal' votes instead. This, of course, we always knew would not work - and all recent opinion polls confirm that we are right.

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31-07-2007, 10:00 PM	#11 (permalink)
Little Englander (sour) Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Portsmouth Posts: 925 Party: English Democrats	To compare a referendum in Gibraltar with a referendum in the UK is ludicrous for many reasons not least the relative size of population. My point was that the government took no notice of the result of the "regionalisation" referendum carried out in the north east of England, why would they take any notice of a private effort.

01-08-2007, 11:55 AM	#13 (permalink)
Little Englander (sour) Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Portsmouth Posts: 925 Party: English Democrats	The use of so many words to make such a small point smacks of panic, we're all wrong from time to time.