To learn English or not?

Anthony Butcher · 11-06-2007, 10:39 AM

These two stories have appeared today:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6739935.stm
Thomas Cook Welsh rule 'unlawful'

Quote:

A ban by Thomas Cook on its staff speaking Welsh to discuss work "quite probably" breaks the law, according to he Commission for Racial Equality.
The travel agents told staff in Bangor - one of the strongest Welsh-speaking areas - they must hold work-related conversations in English.

The Welsh Language Society called it "disgraceful" and said it highlighted the need for a new Welsh Language Act.

The Welsh Assembly Government said the firm's rule was "wholly unacceptable".

It emerged last week that staff at the Gwynedd store had been asked to use only English to discuss business.

A Thomas Cook spokeswoman confirmed the policy applied to all non-English languages.

A company statement said: "Thomas Cook requests that all staff speak English when discussing work-related matters in the work place.

"This ensures clear communication at all times and is respectful to team members who do not speak other languages.

"Thomas Cook employs staff from many cultural backgrounds, therefore the company appreciates its staff may want to talk to colleagues in other languages for anything that is not business related".

The Commission for Racial Equality in Wales, will consult its lawyers on Monday, while the language board has already been in contact with the firm.

Commission director Chris Myant told BBC Radio Wales that Thomas Cook's policy was "quite probably" in breach of the Race Relations Act.

If you've got customers coming in speaking Welsh, employees who are fluent, then they have a right to speak whatever language they wish in the workplace
Hywel Griffiths, the chair of Cymdeithas Yr Iaith

He said: "It's somewhat silly. It's not something that will work in the workplace.

"We won't make a definite statement until we've actually seen the full details. But this is something that won't run with the Race Relations Act in general."

Mr Myant said Thomas Cook managers could visit his office if they wanted to see how "you can make bilingual offices work".

Hywel Griffiths, the chair of Cymdeithas Yr Iaith, told the same programme he thought the firm's decision was "disgraceful".

"It really wouldn't have happened if a [new] Welsh Language Act had been in force," he said.

"If you've got customers coming in speaking Welsh, employees who are fluent, then they have a right to speak whatever language they wish in the workplace."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...igrants111.xml
Immigrants told: it's time to learn English

Quote:

A crackdown on councils and other public bodies routinely translating documents into foreign languages was indicated yesterday amid fears that they discourage immigrants from learning English.

Ruth Kelly, the Communities Secretary, said translation had been used too frequently and could become "a crutch" which acted as a barrier to integration.

Ruth Kelly said translation had been used too frequently
The practice allowed new arrivals to avoid learning English and meant that many never did, Miss Kelly said.

"I do think translation has been used too frequently and sometimes without thought to the consequences," she told BBC1's The Politics Show.

"So, for example, it's quite possible for someone to come here from Pakistan or elsewhere ... and find that materials are routinely translated into their mother tongue, and therefore not have the incentive to learn the language."

Some councils, Miss Kelly said, were guilty of handing out money to particular ethnic or cultural groups instead of using community centres to bring people together.

A report from the Commission on Integration and Cohesion, which was commissioned by Miss Kelly to look at ways to help immigrants to integrate better, will be published on Thursday.

The commission, which has focused on fears that segregated communities have acted as a spawning ground for extremism, is likely to suggest spending less on translation and more on English lessons.

Reports suggested yesterday that councils spend £500 million a year on translation.

advertisementDarra Singh, the chairman of the cohesion commission, said: "It is important that we encourage newcomers to learn English, rather than make it easier for them to get by without. Some basic translation is useful and necessary, but we have not always struck the right guidance."

Writing in The Observer, Mr Singh said: "Where savings are made by cutting translation services, they should be reinvested in English lessons - both for newcomers and settled communities."

Mr Singh also wants more young people involved in local projects and said "we need to consider a national community service and we should not be afraid of asking whether this should be compulsory".

Miss Kelly indicated that the Government would not back a compulsory scheme.

She insisted that translation of information on access to emergency services was necessary, but added: "I think speaking the language is absolutely key. Something the commission looked at is whether we should be translating from English into different languages as a matter of routine. They are going to put out guidance \u2026 where local authorities can ask really hard questions about whether or not we're providing a crutch and supporting people in their difference."

Reports yesterday suggested that employers would be asked to pay for language courses for workers with a poor grasp of English.

But David Davis, the Tory home affairs spokesman, told The Daily Telegraph: "This issue is a direct outcome of Government immigration policy. It should be for the Government to pick up the tab, not business."

Lord Bruce-Lockhart, of the Local Government Association, accused Labour of pushing councils into spending so much on translations as part of its failed 1990s policy on multiculturalism.

mkpdavies · 11-06-2007, 11:15 AM

It's a right old mess now.

I can't see how they can tell Welsh people not to speak in their own tounge now though.

(Well I can, as long as they made it an initial requirement of the job).

g hall · 11-06-2007, 01:02 PM

Spin it about then - If you don't speak English to an acceptable level in England then you're a racist - The CRE will never sanction it

C_steam · 11-06-2007, 01:08 PM

Quote:

A company statement said: "Thomas Cook requests that all staff speak English when discussing work-related matters in the work place.

"This ensures clear communication at all times and is respectful to team members who do not speak other languages.

"Thomas Cook employs staff from many cultural backgrounds, therefore the company appreciates its staff may want to talk to colleagues in other languages for anything that is not business related".

Thomas cook is permitting conversation in ethnic languages betwen employees. It is trying to stop business related conversations in anything other than english. If tested, my money is on TC to win this one - it is a reasonable request and fully understandable for a business to have one language as their 'business' language for business purposes.

Phil Sheldon · 11-06-2007, 01:15 PM

1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.

2. Within the scope of application of the Treaty establishing the European Community and of the Treaty on European Union, and without prejudice to the special provisions of those Treaties, any discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited.
http://www.eucharter.org/home.php?page_id=28

Not only has the adoption of the ECHR created a minefield(A lucrative one if you're Cherie Blair) but the above article blows Phoney Tony's claim that we are an 'Inclusive' nation clean out of the water.

Before the ECHR was incorporated into British law, managers were allowed to manage and directors could get on with their prime functions of growing and directing a company.

Now, any asshole who does'nt like the way a company operates cries'Discrimination' and seeks a pay-off.

Another part of Blair's legacy.

TonyG · 11-06-2007, 02:16 PM

Quote:

1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.

This isn't discrimination though. I'm with C_steam on this one, this is about work-related issues and the company is quite within its rights to insist that all work-related matters are kept to English.
Using languages that colleagues don't understand is a great way to sow distrust.

C_steam · 11-06-2007, 02:38 PM

Quote:

1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.

Phil, it seems like many people you don't fully understand 'discrimination' in the sense of application to the new legislation.

Discrimination is about treating people DIFFERENTLY. In this case, Thomas Cooke is not treating people differently, it is treating all employees the same regardless of their origin and has a clear business case to require a single language for business communication.

mkpdavies · 11-06-2007, 02:47 PM

Where does common sense come into all this?

C_steam · 11-06-2007, 03:04 PM

normally at the tribunal hearing!

mkpdavies · 11-06-2007, 04:04 PM

You reckon? I think law is such a mess now, anything could happen.

11-06-2007, 11:15 AM	#2 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 31,158 Party: Libertarian Party	It's a right old mess now. I can't see how they can tell Welsh people not to speak in their own tounge now though. (Well I can, as long as they made it an initial requirement of the job). __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

11-06-2007, 01:02 PM	#3 (permalink)
g hall Uber Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: erewhon Posts: 5,636	Spin it about then - If you don't speak English to an acceptable level in England then you're a racist - The CRE will never sanction it __________________ "That government is best which governs least." "This is a sharp Medicine, but it is a Physician for all diseases and miseries". "To be "matter of fact" about the world is to blunder into fantasy --and dull fantasy at that, as the real world is strange and wonderful." TANSTAAFL TANJ

11-06-2007, 02:47 PM	#8 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 31,158 Party: Libertarian Party	Where does common sense come into all this? __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

11-06-2007, 04:04 PM	#10 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 31,158 Party: Libertarian Party	You reckon? I think law is such a mess now, anything could happen. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

11-06-2007, 01:15 PM	#5 (permalink)
Phil Sheldon Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 587	1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited. 2. Within the scope of application of the Treaty establishing the European Community and of the Treaty on European Union, and without prejudice to the special provisions of those Treaties, any discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited. http://www.eucharter.org/home.php?page_id=28 Not only has the adoption of the ECHR created a minefield(A lucrative one if you're Cherie Blair) but the above article blows Phoney Tony's claim that we are an 'Inclusive' nation clean out of the water. Before the ECHR was incorporated into British law, managers were allowed to manage and directors could get on with their prime functions of growing and directing a company. Now, any asshole who does'nt like the way a company operates cries'Discrimination' and seeks a pay-off. Another part of Blair's legacy.

11-06-2007, 03:04 PM	#9 (permalink)
C_steam Super Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Paddling up 5hit creek..... Posts: 7,802	normally at the tribunal hearing!