To learn English or not?

Phil Sheldon · 11-06-2007, 09:52 PM

Ah,C-steam.

My post was not in support of Welsh speakers. I should have made that clear.Apologies.

I did read the ECHR article before I posted and accept that it concentrates on the point you made.
However,I'm fairly certain that sometime ago there was a case before an Industrial Tribunal concerning a language barrier-or a claim to speak some other native tongue-but I cannot recall the outcome, and the case in question was brought under a section(Article) of the ECHR.
I still think it was a mistake to incorporate this Act into UK law.

arden forester · 11-06-2007, 10:59 PM

Llyod George took his mistress with him on visits abroad and regularly upset the likes of the french President by speaking Welsh together whilst in his presence.

prober · 13-06-2007, 06:06 PM

C stream says discrimination is treating people ( ie individuals) differently. Most people in UKIP would agree. However under political correct disctates such as by the CRE, discrimination is the reverse of that, ie failing to treat "groups" differently to achieve arbitary "equality, diversity or multicultural " targets eg failing to discriminate against or give special favours to individuals on the basis of colour etc etc in order to achieve a group result.

Hence £££££ victory for the lawyers & jobsworths either way .

There is another dimension to Welsh however . It is an indigenous language . Common sense & natural justice says it should be treated as a special place differently from use of immigrant languages. Another layer of lawyers will win ££££ on fighting pros and cons on that.

I worked in an office once where all chat between staff was in Welsh & answering the phone. As a Sais I had no problem with that & just muttered away in Arabic.

Anthony Butcher · 13-06-2007, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prober

There is another dimension to Welsh however . It is an indigenous language . Common sense & natural justice says it should be treated as a special place differently from use of immigrant languages.

There are areas of Britain where Urdu is the predominant language and has been for many years - how is that any different to Welsh? Why should some British citizens have less language rights than others based on ancestral languages? An equal and fair society has to be based on the current population's needs, not the past.

Also, it could be argued that Welsh was nearly dead until it was artificially resurrected through compulsory teaching at Welsh schools etc.

arden forester · 13-06-2007, 06:51 PM

Quote:

It is an indigenous language .

Well, it's the only one that is! Apart from Scots Gaelic. English is a mixture of about six/seven languages - Norse, Norman, Friesian, Danish, Saxon, and Latin and Greek!

Surely Urdu has given us a few words too!

prober · 13-06-2007, 07:02 PM

AB opens an interesting position which can be called the establishment PC one. ie that Britain ( like any other country ) should be considered merely a blank piece of land which should be open to all in which ethnic British should have no more right to live here than any foreign national or ethnic group that wishes to do so and British history /culture/ language/traditions/religions etc must not be treated better than equally with any immigrant ditto ... ie the ultimate multicultural society in which Sharia Law should have equal place with British law, and everyone should have equal right to use whatever language they want for official matters with no special place for English let alone indigenous minority languages. ( Extemist PC takes this "diversity " further to seek to actively eradicate indigenous aspects)

the argument can be transported internationally to say China Japan Africa & Islamic states who may accept it ( or chop your head off or put you in jail or on the first plane out) to create the ultimate diverse multicultural population flow world in which every country is multi everything all pretty much the same.

The alternative view is that if immigrants want citizenship of UK or live here they should be expected to respect the PRIMACY of indigenous institutions systems etc etc. Similar in Pakistan Welsh should not be treated equally with Urdu nor German treated equally with Thai in Thailand.The degree of this will vary , eg USA is in essence an immigration based society in which the indigenous have been marginalised . UK & most countries are not... though some would like that way.

Back to my previous posting I subsequently read a press article of a new proposed "ANTI DISCRIMINATION ! " law part of which will allow police forces to give " FAVOURED TREATMENT" to ethnic minority individuals ( We already know that under- represented white ethnic minorities will be excluded from these special priveleges ) . This means that racist police forces sued & fined for actively discriminating against indigenous & white ethnic minority applicant individuals will now be encouraged to do so in the interests of " anti discrimination" . Havn't New Labour read George Orwell's 1984 ? .

A gift to the BNP on a plate.

arden forester · 13-06-2007, 07:21 PM

I think there's a difference between speaking a language in groups and trying to take over institutions in order to change them. The first is a kind of live and let live, the second is a form of cultural superiority. Those Islamists that want Britain to be an Islamic state are typical of the second.

C_steam · 13-06-2007, 07:37 PM

Quote:

However under political correct disctates such as by the CRE, discrimination is the reverse of that, ie failing to treat "groups" differently to achieve arbitary "equality, diversity or multicultural " targets eg failing to discriminate against or give special favours to individuals on the basis of colour etc etc in order to achieve a group result.

No legal basis, or if they have, please show me.

Anthony Butcher · 13-06-2007, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prober

and everyone should have equal right to use whatever language they want for official matters with no special place for English let alone indigenous minority languages.

I was playing Devil's advocate to some extent, obviously, but you have misunderstood my point slightly. I wasn't suggesting that any and all languages should be used for official matters, I actually think that only one (English) should be used to avoid preferential treatment. Everyone in Wales can speak English and it is just political correctness that ensures the massive waste caused by duplicating everything in Welsh.

Of course in private/business matters, I support the right of British people to speak whatever language they wish.

11-06-2007, 10:59 PM	#12 (permalink)
arden forester Uber Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Solihull, in The Forest of Arden, Warwickshire! Posts: 2,699 Party: None	Llyod George took his mistress with him on visits abroad and regularly upset the likes of the french President by speaking Welsh together whilst in his presence. __________________ www.ardenforester.blogspot.com www.westminster-whispers.blogspot.com

13-06-2007, 07:21 PM	#17 (permalink)
arden forester Uber Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Solihull, in The Forest of Arden, Warwickshire! Posts: 2,699 Party: None	I think there's a difference between speaking a language in groups and trying to take over institutions in order to change them. The first is a kind of live and let live, the second is a form of cultural superiority. Those Islamists that want Britain to be an Islamic state are typical of the second. __________________ www.ardenforester.blogspot.com www.westminster-whispers.blogspot.com

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11-06-2007, 09:52 PM	#11 (permalink)
Phil Sheldon Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 587	Ah,C-steam. My post was not in support of Welsh speakers. I should have made that clear.Apologies. I did read the ECHR article before I posted and accept that it concentrates on the point you made. However,I'm fairly certain that sometime ago there was a case before an Industrial Tribunal concerning a language barrier-or a claim to speak some other native tongue-but I cannot recall the outcome, and the case in question was brought under a section(Article) of the ECHR. I still think it was a mistake to incorporate this Act into UK law.

13-06-2007, 06:06 PM	#13 (permalink)
prober Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 855	C stream says discrimination is treating people ( ie individuals) differently. Most people in UKIP would agree. However under political correct disctates such as by the CRE, discrimination is the reverse of that, ie failing to treat "groups" differently to achieve arbitary "equality, diversity or multicultural " targets eg failing to discriminate against or give special favours to individuals on the basis of colour etc etc in order to achieve a group result. Hence £££££ victory for the lawyers & jobsworths either way . There is another dimension to Welsh however . It is an indigenous language . Common sense & natural justice says it should be treated as a special place differently from use of immigrant languages. Another layer of lawyers will win ££££ on fighting pros and cons on that. I worked in an office once where all chat between staff was in Welsh & answering the phone. As a Sais I had no problem with that & just muttered away in Arabic.

13-06-2007, 07:02 PM	#16 (permalink)
prober Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 855	AB opens an interesting position which can be called the establishment PC one. ie that Britain ( like any other country ) should be considered merely a blank piece of land which should be open to all in which ethnic British should have no more right to live here than any foreign national or ethnic group that wishes to do so and British history /culture/ language/traditions/religions etc must not be treated better than equally with any immigrant ditto ... ie the ultimate multicultural society in which Sharia Law should have equal place with British law, and everyone should have equal right to use whatever language they want for official matters with no special place for English let alone indigenous minority languages. ( Extemist PC takes this "diversity " further to seek to actively eradicate indigenous aspects) the argument can be transported internationally to say China Japan Africa & Islamic states who may accept it ( or chop your head off or put you in jail or on the first plane out) to create the ultimate diverse multicultural population flow world in which every country is multi everything all pretty much the same. The alternative view is that if immigrants want citizenship of UK or live here they should be expected to respect the PRIMACY of indigenous institutions systems etc etc. Similar in Pakistan Welsh should not be treated equally with Urdu nor German treated equally with Thai in Thailand.The degree of this will vary , eg USA is in essence an immigration based society in which the indigenous have been marginalised . UK & most countries are not... though some would like that way. Back to my previous posting I subsequently read a press article of a new proposed "ANTI DISCRIMINATION ! " law part of which will allow police forces to give " FAVOURED TREATMENT" to ethnic minority individuals ( We already know that under- represented white ethnic minorities will be excluded from these special priveleges ) . This means that racist police forces sued & fined for actively discriminating against indigenous & white ethnic minority applicant individuals will now be encouraged to do so in the interests of " anti discrimination" . Havn't New Labour read George Orwell's 1984 ? . A gift to the BNP on a plate.