TonyG

Cancer vaccines! Nice one!
That's a real biggie for them isn't it?
Less than 3000 women in the UK develop cervical cancer, yet the druggies are lobbying for ALL 12 and 13 year olds to be vaccinated, even though the vaccine doesn't 'protect' against all cervical cancers! Talk about bigging up the need for it! It's an absolute disgrace.
And of course, because Gardisil is relatively new it hasn't been 'road tested' yet.
In addition to that the vaccine is 'thought' to last for only four years. So in a woman's lifetime the vaccine should be administered at least 12 times, presuming that they only cover the years of average sexual activity. If the vaccine isn't regularly administered then it is pointless giving the first one.
Hell of a load to supposedly protect around 2000 people - give 360 million doses!!!!!
Who on earth is going to pay for this?

As for taking expert's views of patients? Give me the patients every time!
Sir Richard Doll? Independent minded government expert? Don't make me laugh!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/...967385,00.html

One piece at a time. I'll get back to the other points later.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/...967385,00.html

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TonyG

Hmm, flu vaccines don't save anyone's lives, unless of course you include Roche executives not jumping out of high windows when the share prices crash! But they do blight thousands, as well as kill.
Vaccines for measles? Another joke drug.
Less than 1 in 100,000 people who contracted the disease died from it. How about autism from the MMR vaccine - oops, stupid question, it doesn't happen. It's all a figment of the public's overactive imagination when their 12 year old is still being wheeled around in a pushchair then?
Polio is a possibly arguable case, but not when you couple it with the way it has been used to create other problems in Africa.
Eradication of smallpox? Yeah, right. Nothing to do with vaccines. Look at the pathology of smallpox and tell me exactly how cowpox can prevent it? Edward Jenner was a charlatan and the vaccines have been a con since day one.

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TonyG

Doctors strikes?

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/docstrike.htm

This part is quite cute:

I wonder why they didn't get excited by it?
Didn't stop them printing it though, or working up a whole load of denials. Maybe it is because drugs kill more people than the arms industry - point proven, and not just because of this one chap. There are thousands more like him. It is never argued against by Big Pharma, they simply claim that 'millions more would die without them'. I would seriously like the chance to prove that, but then I'm not in control, they are.

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TonyG

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article981.html

It happens every time!

Admittedly these aren't drug company paid experts writing these articles, but then they wouldn't, would they?
Truth is the first thing to be sacrificed when drug money is at stake.

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Clippo

Certainly hit your g-spot with this topic – you’re splaying around opprobrium on the whole modern medicines industry like a drunken machine gunner & not hitting any target.
You wrote:-
Not correct on several counts. 1) the 3 refs I support are written in independent journals. Go look ‘em up. The third study independently supports the conclusion of the first 2 (which are essentially the same). It would appear that no other critical financial analysis, other than the consumer group one, has been published for expert perusal which would suggest most experts agree with it. 2) extract from the BBC report in post 1.:-
- my bolding
&
You cannot be serious !!! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
I’ve seen some pretty amazing postings while on this forum but this and your previous ones are heading for all time stupidity.

Facts:-
Normal people, ever since there have been people, like living & as long as possible,
Normal people like living free of disease, disfigurement & pain
Normal people have always tried to find ways to beat disease & pain
All societies have evolved ‘medical ‘experts’ – witch-doctors, shamans, witches, old wives …
Modern medicine has grown naturally on the efforts of other pioneers down thro’ the ages, especially like Jenner & Pasteur.
Most of the growth of natural sciences was/is been triggered by efforts to combat disease.
The major budgets of most countries and the UN thro’ the WHO are health-oriented. Why would they spend such sums of money on, according to your view, worthless remedies?
Perhaps because normal people recognise the value of modern drugs & vaccines and scientific medicine.
I think you’re living in a parallel universe to the rest of us.

I’ve got the hint at last. You’re obviously an Alternative Health Fanatic & who can’t come to terms with the fact that time & time again double blind studies on homeopathy, herbal remedies, vitamins and so on show they don’t work.
You also wrote:-
Perhaps rational people saw through the alternative medicine codswallop propaganda>

I can’t argue or debate with such a closed mind. Sorry, I'm quitting this one while I'm ahead!!

TonyG

Wow! I'm impressed, you managed to get the full range of industry standard bombs out in one post - guess you've done that before then.

Pity you weren't actually capable of answering properly any of the points I raised.

All you did was to quote one bit on "it didn't invalidate the study". What the hell else could you expect from "independent researchers" who have only provided "research" on drugs produced by Roche and paid for by Roche?
What a donkey!

As for "independent journals" that's another fallacy put out by stooges like you! Who pays for 90% of advertising in medical journals? Drugs companies! In what way does that ever make them "independent"?
It doesn't.

The standard approach of ALL drug companies when they want their propaganda out is to pay "researchers" to add their name to papers they have written themselves, get it released by third parties to journals who then, like the puppies they are, reprint every word of it!

This is just one more example of it being done. And a very good one at that.
Please note that the "study" was paid for by Roche and ONLY INCLUDES DRUGS MADE BY THEM!
If it really was an independent study they would also mention competitor products as well, which are noticeable only by their absence.

You are just so typical of someone who has made their living out of drugs, you will defend them to the bitter end.

Mankind survived 100,000 years without drugs, take them away and we would survive the next 100,000, but with them being 'properly prescribed' and mistakes by the medical profession now recognised as being the 4th or 5th largest killer of people - well ahead of guns, bombs and bullets - they can be seen for what they frequently are:
Toxic compounds designed to maintain ill-health and maximise profits!

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mkpdavies

I'm in the middle on this one.

For sure I belive there are many health professionals and businesses that have acheived a lot of good for people.

However, I fully believe there is corruption and some of the biggest, most powerful companies do have dubious methods. Big, powerful, corrupt, I see a pattern emerging here.

The other problem with power, is that it seems to be best at manipulation too. How many people just belive the **** they are handed down by their masters/owners/betters. Lots and if they don't get in line, their careers tend to come to an end.

So I think medicine is just the same as anythign else really. Humans are involved and the people you would least want to have the power and pull the strings, have the power and pull the strings.

Personally, I still have a certain amount of trust for doctors, because I think they are mostly dedicated and do what they think is best for their patients. I am mindful of the pressures and influences they have on them though, so I will always play it on a case by case basis. I will always do a bit of my own research before just blindly taking advice.

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TonyG

Jenner was a fraud who bought his 'doctorate' after making his remarkable 'discovery' that was really an assumption, after killing his own 21 year old son with his small pox vaccine! What a prat he was!
Having said that, he wasn't such a prat that after talking to a few mates who were in government, and business, about making a vaccine that they could sell (please note the word vaccine comes from vacca, latin for cow) to make a shedload of money!
The proper term for a smallpox 'treatment' of this nature would be variolation, not vaccination.
I'm not a lefty, fruitbat or anything else, Clippo. I am someone who has spent many years looking into the way that drugs companies screw the governments and public alike with perpetual disinformation and suppression of truth and facts.
If you can't deal with the points raised, I can understand that, but don't bother with trying to denigrate the messenger because of your own shortcomings, it doesn't work.

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TonyG

I would agree with you if you said nurses, they are the ones that really care. Many doctors are in it purely for the position and the money.
Look at how doctor's services have been dramatically reduced in recent years: no more call outs, no more out of hours or weekend working and for what? £100k a year salary.
There used to be a time when doctors were highly regarded, but having had a 60% pay rise over the last few years when nurses et al have had a fifth of that but do the hard graft. The public as a whole are getting fed up with them because it is getting easier to see what they are doing. Less work for masses of extra money.

GPs in particular are nothing but pill pushers - but that is what they have been taught to do.
We have worked with a lot of people who have been on incredible drug regimes that have destroyed their lives, many of whom have 'unidentified conditions'.
There is a pattern as well to the drugs that are almost always prescribed:
Amytriptoline
Diclofenac
Prednisilone
Cocodamol
and
Azathioprine.

This concoction is the doctor's/consultant's favourite because it hammers the body from all sides.
The recommendation? Minimum 3 months, even though the side-effects are horrendous. And after 3 months? "Hmm, too dangerous to take you off them! But we will play around with the dosages!!!!"

Find anyone with long term chronic or acute conditions, especially where the patient doesn't respond or the diagnosis is uncertain and you are sure to find some or all of the above being prescribed.
This is the world that we now live in - treat the symptoms, not the cause.
Treatments cost money and the money is spent on drugs.

NHS funding has gone through the roof under Labour but the service is still ****. Now doctors and nurses are being laid off all over the country and what so we hear from Big Pharma? Ooh, our drugs are more expensive this year, costs have risen, billion quid to get them approved... etc. etc.!
Look at the overall drug budget in the UK and you will see a 120% increase over the last 6 years and it is going to get worse.
They have money on an intravenous feed from the government.
That is where the money has gone and that is why we are getting sicker than ever.

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mkpdavies

It has to be said, the last time I went to see a doctor, he went to his book to find out what was wrong with me. I felt like saying, why don't you just facking Google it like I will be doing.

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