UKpopdems - building the manifesto

ukpopdems · 02-01-2007, 01:33 PM

Thanks, Matt.

Interesting and unusual photo. I believe that in that foundation of yours is more than the restriction of the EU. Britain is hemmed around with loads of obligations that prevent total freedom. Is the EU all bad? Half bad I would agree, but I don't thnk we would have the pressure to clean up our act if it weren't for Brussels - like clean air, water, beaches etc. And EU has had an impact on the so called cafe culture - look at any major high street now with its bars and cafs. Much better than the old, dark drinkers only pubs we are getting rid of. That must be some sort of European influence.

Have you been to Switzerland recently? CH used to be thought of as the paragon of freedoms and wealth. Now it is looking jaded, is arrogant and the quality is going. IT may not have changed. I think we have. We've moved on.

Hartlepool · 02-01-2007, 01:39 PM

Good,dont let us keep you.

ukpopdems · 02-01-2007, 01:41 PM

[quote="ModernUKIP"]
The Police used to do EXACTLY what you describe. However, because the policing style has changed, people often only meet the Police in a negative context these days, which is why their favour is falling. If we returned to true neighbourhood policing, I think you'll find there's no need at all for plastic policemen, sorry - I mean 'Community Officers'.[/quote

Thanks ModernUKIP. Yes, I agree, the policing style has changed. I don't think we can ever get back now. We cannot even get back to Dixon of Dock Green. A 'clip round the ear'? To late. Dixon would be stabbed before he left his front door, have petrol through his letter-box and be had up for Human Rights infringement.

Have you heard of PCSOs? They are today's plastic policemen. They work well with the Community. There just aren't enough of them.

Westcountryman · 02-01-2007, 01:44 PM

Wait wait wait, you're trying to tell me a Policeman would get stabbed? I have three problems with this.

1) Police Officers have superior training than PCSOs

2) Police Officers have defensive equipment, unlike PCSOs

3) A Policeman can arrest suspects and criminals, unlike PCSOs

Oh, and didn't you hear about the PCSO who got stabbed in the neck?

Sorry, but its still Policemen for me.

ukpopdems · 02-01-2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookie65

It does appear to be a much more comprehensive crime and punishment policy than we have produced in the last 13 years.
It is one mans view, and yes referendum policy IE picking the most popular choices in every subject is populist.
I am glad that our MPs Know better than public opinion and have done so for the last 50 years. Their detachment from populist belief has contributed to the wonderful position we are now in.

I don't know you well enough Cookie65. Is that ironic?

I think Britain has never been in a worse position. The incompetence (I'm being generous) of governments over the last 30 years or so, and especially this lot, has created two disasters that led me to set up UKpopdems in the first place.

1. Britain's social structure has almost been destroyed.
2. Britain's financial structure has almost been destroyed

I guess if you are UKIP, you'd say Britain's independence has nearly been destroyed, too.

In private moments I dream of Blair and Brown beng indicted on treason charges. It's that serious.

The British people deserve better.

Hartlepool · 02-01-2007, 01:50 PM

I think there is plenty of room for both of them,God knows,we do need them,now,more than ever with the escalting threats Bliars Labour has brought down on us.(backed of course by the CONS and LIB-DUMS.)

Westcountryman · 02-01-2007, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartlepool

I think there is plenty of room for both of them,God knows,we do need them,now,more than ever with the escalting threats Bliars Labour has brought down on us.(backed of course by the CONS and LIB-DUMS.)

Sorry, but when you consider they cost the same, if we can afford 250,000 new PCSOs (which I doubt in itself), then I want to see 250,000 new coppers.

ukpopdems · 02-01-2007, 01:54 PM

Britannist.

I wholeheartedly agree with your last para. LibDems are peculiar, no doubt about it. But in all that, I don't think there are many anti-EU votes in the LibDems. As you know, UKpopdems is neutral on EU and comes in for a lot of vilification for it in this forum. Unbelievebe as it sounds to you, there are millions of Brits who are pro-EU. They cant all be mad

Westcountryman · 02-01-2007, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ukpopdems

Britannist.

I wholeheartedly agree with your last para. LibDems are peculiar, no doubt about it. But in all that, I don't think there are many anti-EU votes in the LibDems. As you know, UKpopdems is neutral on EU and comes in for a lot of vilification for it in this forum. Unbelievebe as it sounds to you, there are millions of Brits who are pro-EU. They cant all be mad

Not mad, just severely misguided.

ukpopdems · 02-01-2007, 02:34 PM

John.

many thanks for making time for a detailed analysis. A lot of useful points there.

Yes, people say they want real coppers. But when those real coppers start to push you (an innocent party) around and be confrontational and threaten you with firearms - which is the real copper today and increasingly tomorrow. You won't want them. We are moving slowly to a kind of police state now. Nobody wants that.

Yes, you want to be left alone. Fair enough. I've had that said before. BUT, BUT. If you needed help and were alone, if you were fearful of going out. If you want violent and other offenders caught, if you wanted illegals found - and you kow something of interest. If you were a victim of crime. Etc

You know, millions desperately want to see police coverage on their streets and to get to know them. But, yes, OK, not everyone.

Police stations. Yes, thanks. COs will probably work out of community centres or a local business or sport club. Everyone will know where.

Get away with it. Yes. Today they know they can get away with it. That's why we need a policy that ensures they will be caught, and they will be punished by detention straight away.

But there are seeds of criminal behaviour. It's only after many transgressions that perpetrators know they can get away with it. I want to cut that option off.

Yes the intelligence comes from security agencies, but it's all fronted by the police.

Not 'chipping' for crime per say. But id and central data, yes. I'll cover in the immigration policy detail.

Police only catch 20% because, A) there aren't enough of them, and B) people won't talk to the 'real copper' It's why we need 250,000 non-threatening community officers people WILL speak to.

Not mental, no. Ball bearing guns, air rifles, cross-bows are only a step up from bows and arrows, plastic pellet guns etc. At the extreme end, maybe.

On your last two points. A thug with his gun taken away is not going to promote all-powerful government. As you see the policy also calls for a balance by disarming the police.

Thanks for your last comment. Yes, politicians are held in extreme low regard. Nobody should take them at face value. UKpopdems believe the people are the masters and politicians the servant. It's a new contract. On our very first day, UKpopdems will do several things. One is to reinstate strong, independent parliamentary regulation. That regulation will decide whether policies are being implemented in line with manifesto commitments - not us.

02-01-2007, 01:44 PM	#24 (permalink)
Westcountryman Uber Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Westcountry. Posts: 5,922 Party: None	Wait wait wait, you're trying to tell me a Policeman would get stabbed? I have three problems with this. 1) Police Officers have superior training than PCSOs 2) Police Officers have defensive equipment, unlike PCSOs 3) A Policeman can arrest suspects and criminals, unlike PCSOs Oh, and didn't you hear about the PCSO who got stabbed in the neck? Sorry, but its still Policemen for me. __________________ Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietam - "This hand of mine, which is hostile to tyrants, seeks by the sword quiet peace under liberty."

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02-01-2007, 01:33 PM	#21 (permalink)
ukpopdems Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 237	Thanks, Matt. Interesting and unusual photo. I believe that in that foundation of yours is more than the restriction of the EU. Britain is hemmed around with loads of obligations that prevent total freedom. Is the EU all bad? Half bad I would agree, but I don't thnk we would have the pressure to clean up our act if it weren't for Brussels - like clean air, water, beaches etc. And EU has had an impact on the so called cafe culture - look at any major high street now with its bars and cafs. Much better than the old, dark drinkers only pubs we are getting rid of. That must be some sort of European influence. Have you been to Switzerland recently? CH used to be thought of as the paragon of freedoms and wealth. Now it is looking jaded, is arrogant and the quality is going. IT may not have changed. I think we have. We've moved on.

02-01-2007, 01:39 PM	#22 (permalink)
Hartlepool Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North East England Posts: 6,645 Party: Other	Good,dont let us keep you.

02-01-2007, 01:41 PM	#23 (permalink)
ukpopdems Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 237	[quote="ModernUKIP"] The Police used to do EXACTLY what you describe. However, because the policing style has changed, people often only meet the Police in a negative context these days, which is why their favour is falling. If we returned to true neighbourhood policing, I think you'll find there's no need at all for plastic policemen, sorry - I mean 'Community Officers'.[/quote Thanks ModernUKIP. Yes, I agree, the policing style has changed. I don't think we can ever get back now. We cannot even get back to Dixon of Dock Green. A 'clip round the ear'? To late. Dixon would be stabbed before he left his front door, have petrol through his letter-box and be had up for Human Rights infringement. Have you heard of PCSOs? They are today's plastic policemen. They work well with the Community. There just aren't enough of them.

02-01-2007, 01:50 PM	#26 (permalink)
Hartlepool Uber Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North East England Posts: 6,645 Party: Other	I think there is plenty of room for both of them,God knows,we do need them,now,more than ever with the escalting threats Bliars Labour has brought down on us.(backed of course by the CONS and LIB-DUMS.)

02-01-2007, 01:54 PM	#28 (permalink)
ukpopdems Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 237	Britannist. I wholeheartedly agree with your last para. LibDems are peculiar, no doubt about it. But in all that, I don't think there are many anti-EU votes in the LibDems. As you know, UKpopdems is neutral on EU and comes in for a lot of vilification for it in this forum. Unbelievebe as it sounds to you, there are millions of Brits who are pro-EU. They cant all be mad

02-01-2007, 02:34 PM	#30 (permalink)
ukpopdems Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 237	John. many thanks for making time for a detailed analysis. A lot of useful points there. Yes, people say they want real coppers. But when those real coppers start to push you (an innocent party) around and be confrontational and threaten you with firearms - which is the real copper today and increasingly tomorrow. You won't want them. We are moving slowly to a kind of police state now. Nobody wants that. Yes, you want to be left alone. Fair enough. I've had that said before. BUT, BUT. If you needed help and were alone, if you were fearful of going out. If you want violent and other offenders caught, if you wanted illegals found - and you kow something of interest. If you were a victim of crime. Etc You know, millions desperately want to see police coverage on their streets and to get to know them. But, yes, OK, not everyone. Police stations. Yes, thanks. COs will probably work out of community centres or a local business or sport club. Everyone will know where. Get away with it. Yes. Today they know they can get away with it. That's why we need a policy that ensures they will be caught, and they will be punished by detention straight away. But there are seeds of criminal behaviour. It's only after many transgressions that perpetrators know they can get away with it. I want to cut that option off. Yes the intelligence comes from security agencies, but it's all fronted by the police. Not 'chipping' for crime per say. But id and central data, yes. I'll cover in the immigration policy detail. Police only catch 20% because, A) there aren't enough of them, and B) people won't talk to the 'real copper' It's why we need 250,000 non-threatening community officers people WILL speak to. Not mental, no. Ball bearing guns, air rifles, cross-bows are only a step up from bows and arrows, plastic pellet guns etc. At the extreme end, maybe. On your last two points. A thug with his gun taken away is not going to promote all-powerful government. As you see the policy also calls for a balance by disarming the police. Thanks for your last comment. Yes, politicians are held in extreme low regard. Nobody should take them at face value. UKpopdems believe the people are the masters and politicians the servant. It's a new contract. On our very first day, UKpopdems will do several things. One is to reinstate strong, independent parliamentary regulation. That regulation will decide whether policies are being implemented in line with manifesto commitments - not us.