FredSucks

We have

A letter from the Welsh Office Dated 29 August 1997 saying

"The Local Government Act 1972 Abolished the administrative county of Monmouthshire and the county borough of Newport,which until then were legally part of England. The definition of Wales in that Act was fully debated prior ot the legislation recieving royal assent in 1972 consequently Monmouthshire became part of Wales on 1 April 1974"

ie no reference to the people of Monmouthshire, whether they wished to remain in England or become part of Wales !!!!!!!! (via a referendum)

However

From the parliamentary scripts - "Local Government Bill - 20 July 1972

Clause 256

MEANING OF "ENGLAND" AND "WALES"

Mr George Thomas (Cardiff, Wales):
" .................................................. ... has the Minister of State now announced that in the future the arguement about Monmouthshire being part of Wales is over, and that this statement makes it clear that Monmouthshire is a part of Wales for good and for ever ?

Mr Gibson-Watt:
"The answer is 'Yes'""

Mr Raymond Gower (Barry):
That is a most important announcement. It is quite inconsistent with the fact that towns with names such as Abergavenny (transalated as gateway to Wales on the Eastern border of Monmouthshire) and Llantarnam could not be anything other than Welsh.

Mr Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Ardwick):
Am I to take it that an act of annexation of this magnitude is to be carried through a sparsely attended House of Commons on the nod at five minutes to midnight on the same basis as Europe has annexed England ? I wish to voice my protest.

Amendment agreed to.

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So what we have is a shabby amendment (which meant no green or white papers) to the local goverment bill took Monmouthshire from England to Wales, and they renamed it as part of the new County of Gwent.

No reference to the people, as to which country Monmouthshire wanted to be in - simply a small group of grubby policiticians, only Gerald Kaufmann had the courage to express his protest. disgust.

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We also have:-

Letter from the Ordance Survey dated 28 October 1974

"Ordnance Survey only changes boundaries on its maps as a result of an Act of Parliament, and the boundaries affected in this way are local goverment boundaries and parliamentary boundaries.

Prior to the Local Government act of 1972, which was operative April 1974, Monmouthshire was shown in England. Since that date, however, it has been shown as Gwent in Wales."

We also have:-

Letter from OPCS (Office of Population Census and Surveys) dated 7 May 1991

"Although in 1931 Monmouthshire was, as you stated, part of England, it is now part of Wales"

We also have:-

Letter from the Welsh Office dated 5 February 1969

"It is widely acknowledged that the present constitutional position of Monmouthshire is anomalous. Although for the most purposes the county is administered as one with the rest of Wales we are advised that the legal position is, as you say, that it is not party of the Principality (Wales)"

"the question of teaching Welsh in schools will, therefore, apply to Wales and Monmouthshire notwithstanding any future legislation to include Monmouthshire in Wales."

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In conclusion, if the constitutional position of Monmouthshire was 'debatable' then surely in a democracy the answer was to give the people of Monmouthshire a say via a referendum on the matter

ie

Should Monmouthshire be Welsh?
or
Should Monmouthshire be English?

To decide the matter at 11:55pm in a poorly attended House of Commons, in the opinion of the English Democrats was unconstitutional and we will campaign for a referendum as the correct way of deciding the matter. Until this is done we will include Monmouthshire as part of England.

FredSucks

Please note this is sensitive information

Try Copy and Pasting onto the Monmouthshire page of Wikapedia - it gets deleted in seconds !

Scary Stuff

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The Murky Transfer of an English County to Wales

Monmouthshire did not exist before 1535, however Monmouth as a town did exist and was documented in the Domesday Book as being part of England.

The 1535 Act (During the Reign of Henry VIII) was made because of the lack of law and order in the Welsh border areas from Mold to Chepstow which were ruled by the “Marcher Lords” – basically this lad was a no-man’s land between Wales and England.

The Act created the counties of Monmouth, Brecknock, Radnor, Montgomery, and Denbigh and annexed the remaining border area to the counties of Shropshire, Gloucester and Hereford – hence the Welsh place names there - so it is therefore not surprising that the Welsh language was in use in the border country.

In that Act Section Three - notes four, five and six - and all of Section Four – especially note six - refer to everything in the county of Monmouthshire being done according to this ‘Realm of England’ and to the subjects and inhabitants of Monmouthshire to be ‘bound and obedient to the King, Justices, Council, laws, customs ordinances and statutes of this Realm of England, in like manner and form as all King’s subjects within every shire of this Realm of England’.

Sections five, six, seven and eight refer respectively to Brecknock, Radnor, Montgomery and Denhigh as parts of the country of Wales, however, Section 36 states that until three years after the end of that Parliament, the King shall have the power to ‘repeal, revoke and abrogate’ the whole, or any part of the Act.

Section two of the 1542 Act, states that Wales will comprise of 12 counties - the eight old counties of Glamorgan, Carmarthen, Pembroke, Cardigan, Flint, Caernarvon, Anglesey and Merioneth and four new ones - Radnor, Brecknock, Montgomery and Denbigh over and besides the county of Monmouth and the other parts of Wales annexed to Shropshire, Gloucester, and Hereford.

Section five of the Act states that sessions will be held in every of the shires of Wales and then names the 12 above with no mention of Monmouthshire The 1933 Local Government Act lists the English and Welsh counties and the county boroughs and places Monmouthshire in the English county list and Newport in the English borough list.

The pre 1974 Ordnance Survey maps also place Monmouthshire in England and correspondence with them will confirm this.

Correspondence with the Welsh Office will also confirm that Monmouthshire was a part of England prior to 1974.

Confusion over this matter has been caused over generations by misleading statements made and repeated by prominent statesmen and politicians for reasons known only to them, taking advantage of the fact that many residents of Monmouthshire were unable to read and write.

When the 1972 Local Government Act was being dealt with in committee, 3 MP.s with no political connections to Monmouthshire, Brynmor John (Pontypridd),George Thomas(Cardiff West), (later Speaker Thomas) and Gibson Watt (Hereford),on the 14 March 1972 constructed a paragraph that would achieve the transfer of Monmouthshire to Wales from England by stating “including the areas of Monmouthshire and Newport in the new counties of Wales.”ie. the 12 old counties would be replaced by 8 new counties,South Glamorgan.,Mid Glamorgan.,West Glamorgan. ,Dyfed, Powys,Gwynledd, Clwyd and Gwent. They omitted to reveal that Gwent was almost entirely the English county of Monmouthshire. The committee comprised of 36 MP.s,but no M.P.s from Monmouthshire,or Newport, were on that committee.

The effect of that sentence was revealed to Parliament four months later at 5 minutes to midnight, 20.July 1972.,by George Thomas, Gibson-Watt and Ray Gower (Barry). The”debate” was over in less than one minute including Gerald Kaufman (Manchester Ardwick) statement “Am I to take it that an Act of annexation of such magnitude is to be carried though a sparsely attended House of Commons on the nod at 5 minutes to midnight on the same basis as Europe has annexed England,I wish to voice my protest.” The Bill had the Third reading less than 18 hours later before going to the Lords and then receiving Royal Assent. There is no record of the 5 M.P.s representing Monmouthshire,and Newport,Messrs Kinnock,Foot,Abse,Hughes and Stradling-Thomas speaking one word for or against, if they were present. As the paragraph was prepared 4 months earlier and there is evidence that indicates they knew about the paragraph, they could have, during those months, informed us what was being proposed, held public meetings, consulted their constituents and held a referendum, but they did not, and have not given any explanation for their inaction. There is no trace in Hansard of any protest that they were not aware of that paragraph prior to 20 July 1972. That transfer to Wales was the most momentous thing that happened in Monmouthshire’s history going back 430 years, and the most important thing that the 5 MP.s presided over during their careers as MP.s. The fact that they spoke not one word, for or against, in Parliament and did not make us aware of what was about to happen, is an abuse of the trust that should exist between M.P.s and their constituents.

When Welsh devolution was proposed in the county, there was repeated visits from the Prime Minister,his deputy, senior members of all political parties, MP.s ,and Trade Union leaders, months of radio and television interviews, numerous articles in national and local newspapers. That was to transfer a few administrative powers from the UK to Wales, but when it was proposed to transfer an English county, with its population of 400,000 to Wales, there was not a whisper from the constituency MP.s or Parliament. What can be said to justify the actions of 4 MP.s, with no political connections to Monmouthshire and Newport, being allowed to override all democratic procedures by misleading statements in committee and in the commons, resulting in the transfer of Monmouthshire and Newport.

Northern Ireland,The Falklands,Channel Isles and Gibraltar have all been told they will not be transferred without a referendum.

The fact that the 1972 Act of Parliament was required to transfer Monmouthshire to Wales again confirms that it was an English county - if it was already in Wales no Act would have been required.

arden forester

ED - Good digging! This is all down to the Great Grocer's efforts of course! That's why I live in a mess called the West Midlands and not Warwickshire! You Men of Kent (and Kentish Men!) did better, but that may have been because Broadstairs is in Kent! :shock:

Anyway, really good. This is the sort of stuff that we need to prove policy rather than suppose it!
http://ardenforester.blogspot.com/20...ing-lands.html