Menzies is a worry for the English

Independence Now! · 11-03-2006, 07:06 PM

I agree with your first assertion that England is hardly 'little' and indeed that is a significant part of the problem as regards devolution. What I was condemming is some of my fellow Englishmen's 'chip on the shoulder/Little Englandism' - a petty habbit which the likes of the SNP and Plaid's supportes pioneered in Scotland and Wales.

Independence Now! · 11-03-2006, 07:06 PM

I agree with your first assertion that England is hardly 'little' and indeed that is a significant part of the problem as regards devolution. What I was condemming is some of my fellow Englishmen's 'chip on the shoulder/Little Englandism' - a petty habbit which the likes of the SNP and Plaid's supporters pioneered in Scotland and Wales.

Hartlepool · 11-03-2006, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Independence Now!

Both Scotland and Wales pay INTO phpbb_the pot as well you know! Have the English Democrats forgotton about the money from North Sea Oil? Anyway, it is untrue to say that Scotland and Wales are getting more than their fair share. One of the reasons why Scotland gets more public spending for its population than England does is because it is costlier to provide public services for a small population spread-out amongst many miles of rough terrain which is served by poor roads ect like in the Highlands and Islands. Why don't the English Democrats take this INTO phpbb_account?

By the way, I am not a Scot and I live in South-East England.

Your last point is ridiculous. We are still living in the United Kingdom and so 'English' money goes to Scotland and Wales and 'Welsh' and 'Scottish' money goes to England. Personally, I don't begrude my fellow Britons any of my money. I would much rather our taxes were spend on them than building a new underground system for Warsaw!

Regardless of their colour Independence Now?

Independence Now! · 11-03-2006, 09:36 PM

Well, it is true to say that, unlike UKIP, the English Democrats, the so-called 'nationalists' of the SNP/Plaid and all the other Establishment parties, the BNP doesn't think the definition of who is a native Briton is so elastic and flexible that anyone in the world and probably in the Solar System too can be one :roll: but that isn't the issue here.

ryansoton · 12-03-2006, 10:44 AM

I think the answer to this would be to abolish the scottish parliament and welsh assembly. If we still want devolved matters to be decided by scots only and welsh only then let the already elected welsh mps and scots mps vote on those matters.
There is no need for a seperate english parliament, the same as there is no need for a scottish parliament and welsh assembly. All this does and would do is increase our taxes and use millions of tax payers money on wasted projects.
Britain is part of the biggest trading bloc of countries in the world The Commenwealth and we need to use this source.
Im fed up with EU supporters telling us that with India emerging as a strong country we need the EU as alone we will not survive, HELLO wake up and realise the dream/nightmare your in. As part of the Commenwealth we can easily survive and out of the EU we will be a far richer country.

ryansoton · 12-03-2006, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Independence Now!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex McKee

If UKIP takes the route of English Nationalism then many will leave it.

They should. This kind of 'Little Englander' English nationalism is just as bad as the kind of 'chip on our shoulders' Scottish and Welsh separatist nationalism that the SNP and Plaid Cymru promote!

And who should they join BNP? Not this member!!

Jerusalem · 12-03-2006, 04:15 PM

I think the democratic deficit is unfair and I am not unsympathetic to English nationalism, to a degree, but let's be honest, an English parliament would never work. Imagine if Rhode Island, Connecticut and Massachussets each had a state assembly, and then the whole of the rest of the USA had just one. Wouldn't it be ludicrous? What if we have a Labour British PM, and a Tory English first minister, as will often be the case? There will be huge incentives for each English leader to break up the Union and become an English Slobodan Milosovic.
Finally, if and when the Union does break up, Northern Ireland could seriously kick off.

I think the solution would be to give every country (yes, the real counties, including the quaint but slightly pointless Rutland) the same power as the Scots parliament and Welsh talking shop, let them decide things like whether fox hunting or smoking should be banned, world-shatteringly important issues that we let the Scots decide for themselves.

GTFC_Adam · 12-03-2006, 06:24 PM

http://www.libdems.org.uk/news/story.html?id=9848

Quote:

At a rally of the Welsh Liberal Democrats in Wrexham tonight, Sir Menzies Campbell MP, Leader of the Liberal Democrats will pledge a fair deal for Wales and argue that the Welsh assembly should put be on the same footing as the Scottish Parliament.

So Wales are more deserving of a fair democratic settlement than the people who pay for it all? :evil:

Independence Now! · 12-03-2006, 10:04 PM

It certainly is a difficult problem to solve and every solution to it appears to have severe drawbacks to them. :?

I think a large part of the problem was that Scotland consistently voted for parties of the centre-left ie Labour and Lib Dems whereas England voted for the Tories and in that eighteen year period of continuous Tory rule they felt that their concerns were being ignored because the whole political system was weighted towards England with its 500 odd MPs. If we had had PR then Scottish concerns (by way of voting for Labour/Lib Dems) would have been acted upon (partially) in government because there would have been either a Lab/Lib Dem coalition or Con/Lib Dem coaltion and not single party rule by the Tories?

Perhaps, the pressure for devolution would have abated if the Tories hadn't won that election in 1992 and ensured a forth term? But then, the Scots have wanted Home Rule since the the 1800's if you look at the history of it with the setting-up of groups like the Scottish National League and the Scottish Home Rule Association.

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11-03-2006, 07:06 PM	#11 (permalink)
Independence Now! Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,096	I agree with your first assertion that England is hardly 'little' and indeed that is a significant part of the problem as regards devolution. What I was condemming is some of my fellow Englishmen's 'chip on the shoulder/Little Englandism' - a petty habbit which the likes of the SNP and Plaid's supportes pioneered in Scotland and Wales.

11-03-2006, 07:06 PM	#12 (permalink)
Independence Now! Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,096	I agree with your first assertion that England is hardly 'little' and indeed that is a significant part of the problem as regards devolution. What I was condemming is some of my fellow Englishmen's 'chip on the shoulder/Little Englandism' - a petty habbit which the likes of the SNP and Plaid's supporters pioneered in Scotland and Wales.

11-03-2006, 09:36 PM	#14 (permalink)
Independence Now! Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,096	Well, it is true to say that, unlike UKIP, the English Democrats, the so-called 'nationalists' of the SNP/Plaid and all the other Establishment parties, the BNP doesn't think the definition of who is a native Briton is so elastic and flexible that anyone in the world and probably in the Solar System too can be one :roll: but that isn't the issue here.

12-03-2006, 10:44 AM	#15 (permalink)
ryansoton Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Southampton Posts: 781 Party: Other	I think the answer to this would be to abolish the scottish parliament and welsh assembly. If we still want devolved matters to be decided by scots only and welsh only then let the already elected welsh mps and scots mps vote on those matters. There is no need for a seperate english parliament, the same as there is no need for a scottish parliament and welsh assembly. All this does and would do is increase our taxes and use millions of tax payers money on wasted projects. Britain is part of the biggest trading bloc of countries in the world The Commenwealth and we need to use this source. Im fed up with EU supporters telling us that with India emerging as a strong country we need the EU as alone we will not survive, HELLO wake up and realise the dream/nightmare your in. As part of the Commenwealth we can easily survive and out of the EU we will be a far richer country.

12-03-2006, 04:15 PM	#17 (permalink)
Jerusalem Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: London Posts: 56	I think the democratic deficit is unfair and I am not unsympathetic to English nationalism, to a degree, but let's be honest, an English parliament would never work. Imagine if Rhode Island, Connecticut and Massachussets each had a state assembly, and then the whole of the rest of the USA had just one. Wouldn't it be ludicrous? What if we have a Labour British PM, and a Tory English first minister, as will often be the case? There will be huge incentives for each English leader to break up the Union and become an English Slobodan Milosovic. Finally, if and when the Union does break up, Northern Ireland could seriously kick off. I think the solution would be to give every country (yes, the real counties, including the quaint but slightly pointless Rutland) the same power as the Scots parliament and Welsh talking shop, let them decide things like whether fox hunting or smoking should be banned, world-shatteringly important issues that we let the Scots decide for themselves.

12-03-2006, 10:04 PM	#19 (permalink)
Independence Now! Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,096	It certainly is a difficult problem to solve and every solution to it appears to have severe drawbacks to them. :? I think a large part of the problem was that Scotland consistently voted for parties of the centre-left ie Labour and Lib Dems whereas England voted for the Tories and in that eighteen year period of continuous Tory rule they felt that their concerns were being ignored because the whole political system was weighted towards England with its 500 odd MPs. If we had had PR then Scottish concerns (by way of voting for Labour/Lib Dems) would have been acted upon (partially) in government because there would have been either a Lab/Lib Dem coalition or Con/Lib Dem coaltion and not single party rule by the Tories? Perhaps, the pressure for devolution would have abated if the Tories hadn't won that election in 1992 and ensured a forth term? But then, the Scots have wanted Home Rule since the the 1800's if you look at the history of it with the setting-up of groups like the Scottish National League and the Scottish Home Rule Association.