"Britishness" OR "Englishness"?

FredSucks · 15-01-2006, 04:07 PM

Statement by Chairman of English Democrats - Robin Tilbrook

The English Democrats, as English Patriots, rephrase Gordon Brown's call for the celebration of patriotism.
We realise that Gordon Brown's purpose is to promote himself and his career but the English Democrats would reassure him that we don't constitutionally object to him becoming the Prime Minister of the U.K. - provided that there is a fair Devolutionary settlement for the English Nation - first!
The English Democrats rephrase Gordon Brown's flag flying call as a call for every English Patriot to put up a flag pole and to fly our flag - the Saint George's Cross!
(Everyone is entitled to do this, under the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations 1992, under which a national flag, flown on a single vertical flagpole, is excluded from any planning control).
The English Democrats also rephrase Gordon Brown's call for a "Britishness day" as a call for St George's Day, April 23rd, to be our own English National Day.

Robin Tilbrook,
Chairman,

English Democrats Party,
www.englandsparty.com
Chairman@EngDem.org

eublues · 15-01-2006, 04:33 PM

I still don't understand what you Eng Dems are all about.

Yes, we know that the situation for Scotland and Wales is anomalous, but all you lot are doing is assisting those seeking to break up Britain to further the power of the EU.

mkpdavies · 15-01-2006, 04:42 PM

I think they have a theory that Britain is screwed, but England still has a chance. IE the Scots and Welsh want to be EU slaves, as long as it isn't the dreaded English calling the shots. If you look at the SNP aldn Plaid's policies, you can understand why.

However, that makes the assumption that

a) The people vote for those parties in the first place and
b) They understand the fact they are not really independence parties, but anti-English parties.

Personally I am more British than English, but I will always support England if push comes to shove. I'm not yet ready to give up on Britain and I believe a retreat back to being just England will weaken us all as nations.

Mikeuk · 15-01-2006, 07:14 PM

I find this 'English Nationalism' thing tedious because it is simply another example of the 'grass is greener syndrome'.

OK we're all fed up with the state of Britain and the British parliament. Wave a wand, have an English parliament instead and we'll be transported back to the days when England was Merrie and run by the likes of Elizabeth I, Edward III or whoever.

What would really happen is that the usual left-wing careerists would annexe Englishness for their own benefit and things would probably be even worse than they are now. Look what has happened in Scotland where all genuine traditions have been trashed in favour of an ersatz PC 'nationalism'.

Actually we have already had a preview of what 21st century
'Englishness' could look like in the shape of packs of drunken soccer yobs enrobed in the St George flag.

And I don't like the look of it.

FredSucks · 15-01-2006, 07:23 PM

Although I personally have nothing against Soccer

I am a Rugby Player and English Rugby Supporter, went to a Grammar School, went to Univeristy and I am a Company Director.

Robin Tilbrook (our Chairman) is a Solicitor

Please don't indicate that an English Nationalist is simply a drunken, tatooed football supporter - this is not the case.

Similiarly we will not taint you "British Nationalists" as a bunch of Neo-Nazi Racists - it is appreciated that UKIP have a genuine 'point' against the EU, and have nothing to do with the BNP.

Regards

ED

Mikeuk · 15-01-2006, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by English Democrat

Please don't indicate that an English Nationalist is simply a drunken, tatooed football supporter - this is not the case.

Nobody is suggesting that you and Mr Tilbrook are soccer yobs.

What I am saying is that whatever form of Englishness you stand for (bowler hats? Old maids cycling to church? whatever) will be overwhelmed by the new and unpleasant image of Englishness.

You are living in the past.

FredSucks · 15-01-2006, 10:32 PM

Lord Baker of Dorking (Kenneth Baker)

Is currently putting a Private Members bill through the House of Lords on the English Issue !

ie
English Voting on English Matters
Barnet Formula
West Lothian Question
etc

The past - was when England had the same democratic right as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (ie Pre 1997) - UKIP want to 'go back there'

The present - (since 1997) is that England has a democratic defecit, plus an economic disadvantage under the current arrangements dominated by the Scots within New Labour.

A Federal UK - is a modern development - not a thing of the past

House of Commons becomes English Parliament
House of Lords becomes British Senate within Federal UK

To me this is modern and forward thinking !

- The popluar Vote in the 2005 General Election gave the Conservatives a majority in England.

===============================================
Also

DOUGLAS FRASER, Scottish Political Editor January 10 2006

Scottish MPs' votes on controversial English legislation are going to cause increasing problems for the government's management of its Westminster business, according to the leading independent think-tank on Britain's constitution.

But it has a warning for David Cameron, the new Tory leader, who has promised the Conservatives will ban Scots MPs from voting on legislation that does not affect their constituents.

The Constitution Unit says that policy would effectively create an English parliament and a far bigger constitutional crisis than anything arising from the current anomaly.

The study, carried out at University College London and published yesterday found that the government was relying increasingly on its Scottish MPs to vote through measures on which English members are rebelling.

It would have suffered four losses in the House of Commons in the past 30 months if it had not been for Scottish Labour MPs backing the introduction of foundation hospitals in England, and student top-up fees for those studying in England.

None of these votes have been since Labour's majority was slashed at last May's election to only 62. Among English MPs, the majority has fallen from 117 to just 43.

But the new year features a severe test of the Blair government in pushing through its schooling, health, and policing reforms for England only.

The researchers have pointed out that even a small rebellion among English MPs would trigger what they call "a decisive West Lothian vote".
This refers to the West Lothian question, posed by Tam Dalyell, the former West Lothian MP, who asked why Scots should be able to influence policy in England when English MPs could not do so in Scotland under devolution.

But yesterday's report warns about the Tory policy of giving the speaker power to designate a bill as one on which only English MPs could vote.
"It would in effect create an English parliament within Westminster, and the potential for an elected UK government unable to legislate for England, its largest constituent part," said the report.

"This would cause a constitutional crisis far greater than the West Lothian question itself . . . A more transparent solution would be to explicitly create an English parliament, but only 16% of the public support this option."

The Conservatives have had a majority of English MPs while Labour has been in power after elections in 1964 and 1974. David Mundell, the Tories' shadow Scotland secretary, said the "English votes" policy was about fairness

http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/53952.html

mkpdavies · 15-01-2006, 11:18 PM

Quote:

A more transparent solution would be to explicitly create an English parliament, but only 16% of the public support this option

Is that for England alone, or Britain as a whole?

The Trooper · 15-01-2006, 11:59 PM

What is the point in a so called English parliament? Was it not the English who conquered the Welsh and the Scotts? Basically what the English democrats are suggesting is that we give up these conquests, for some fanciful dream of England will be better on its own. If that was true we would not have conquered them in the first place.

United we stand divided we fall.

I mean i have Scottish blood in me, yet i personally regard Scotland as a region not a nation despite all the history. I mean we do not see a resurrection of the Mercians yet this would make just as much sense as an independent Scotland. We need to stick together. It was the British who built the Empire not just the English, we built somthing great together lets not forget this.

I know what people mean about the Scotts having a say over our country etc, basically we need to remove the regional assembly of Wales and Scottish parliament. What the Labour party did by restoring them was to open up a whole can of worms which we did not need in the first place.

Mikeuk · 16-01-2006, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Trooper

basically we need to remove the regional assembly of Wales and Scottish parliament. What the Labour party did by restoring them was to open up a whole can of worms which we did not need in the first place.

Above all they are a waste of money and playgrounds for the political class.

Yes. Abolish them. Either Britain is one nation or it is no nation at all.

15-01-2006, 04:07 PM	#1 (permalink)
FredSucks Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,941	"Britishness" OR "Englishness"? Statement by Chairman of English Democrats - Robin Tilbrook The English Democrats, as English Patriots, rephrase Gordon Brown's call for the celebration of patriotism. We realise that Gordon Brown's purpose is to promote himself and his career but the English Democrats would reassure him that we don't constitutionally object to him becoming the Prime Minister of the U.K. - provided that there is a fair Devolutionary settlement for the English Nation - first! The English Democrats rephrase Gordon Brown's flag flying call as a call for every English Patriot to put up a flag pole and to fly our flag - the Saint George's Cross! (Everyone is entitled to do this, under the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations 1992, under which a national flag, flown on a single vertical flagpole, is excluded from any planning control). The English Democrats also rephrase Gordon Brown's call for a "Britishness day" as a call for St George's Day, April 23rd, to be our own English National Day. Robin Tilbrook, Chairman, English Democrats Party, www.englandsparty.com Chairman@EngDem.org

15-01-2006, 04:42 PM	#3 (permalink)
mkpdavies Uber Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Woking Posts: 30,604	I think they have a theory that Britain is screwed, but England still has a chance. IE the Scots and Welsh want to be EU slaves, as long as it isn't the dreaded English calling the shots. If you look at the SNP aldn Plaid's policies, you can understand why. However, that makes the assumption that a) The people vote for those parties in the first place and b) They understand the fact they are not really independence parties, but anti-English parties. Personally I am more British than English, but I will always support England if push comes to shove. I'm not yet ready to give up on Britain and I believe a retreat back to being just England will weaken us all as nations. __________________ http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/ http://wokinglibertarians.blogspot.com/ http://lpuk.org My ignore list Labour, Blue Labour, Lib Dems

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15-01-2006, 04:33 PM	#2 (permalink)
eublues Uber Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,970	I still don't understand what you Eng Dems are all about. Yes, we know that the situation for Scotland and Wales is anomalous, but all you lot are doing is assisting those seeking to break up Britain to further the power of the EU.

15-01-2006, 07:14 PM	#4 (permalink)
Mikeuk Uber Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Fareham Posts: 5,508	I find this 'English Nationalism' thing tedious because it is simply another example of the 'grass is greener syndrome'. OK we're all fed up with the state of Britain and the British parliament. Wave a wand, have an English parliament instead and we'll be transported back to the days when England was Merrie and run by the likes of Elizabeth I, Edward III or whoever. What would really happen is that the usual left-wing careerists would annexe Englishness for their own benefit and things would probably be even worse than they are now. Look what has happened in Scotland where all genuine traditions have been trashed in favour of an ersatz PC 'nationalism'. Actually we have already had a preview of what 21st century 'Englishness' could look like in the shape of packs of drunken soccer yobs enrobed in the St George flag. And I don't like the look of it.

15-01-2006, 07:23 PM	#5 (permalink)
FredSucks Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,941	Although I personally have nothing against Soccer I am a Rugby Player and English Rugby Supporter, went to a Grammar School, went to Univeristy and I am a Company Director. Robin Tilbrook (our Chairman) is a Solicitor Please don't indicate that an English Nationalist is simply a drunken, tatooed football supporter - this is not the case. Similiarly we will not taint you "British Nationalists" as a bunch of Neo-Nazi Racists - it is appreciated that UKIP have a genuine 'point' against the EU, and have nothing to do with the BNP. Regards ED

15-01-2006, 10:32 PM	#7 (permalink)
FredSucks Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,941	Lord Baker of Dorking (Kenneth Baker) Is currently putting a Private Members bill through the House of Lords on the English Issue ! ie English Voting on English Matters Barnet Formula West Lothian Question etc The past - was when England had the same democratic right as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (ie Pre 1997) - UKIP want to 'go back there' The present - (since 1997) is that England has a democratic defecit, plus an economic disadvantage under the current arrangements dominated by the Scots within New Labour. A Federal UK - is a modern development - not a thing of the past House of Commons becomes English Parliament House of Lords becomes British Senate within Federal UK To me this is modern and forward thinking ! - The popluar Vote in the 2005 General Election gave the Conservatives a majority in England. =============================================== Also DOUGLAS FRASER, Scottish Political Editor January 10 2006 Scottish MPs' votes on controversial English legislation are going to cause increasing problems for the government's management of its Westminster business, according to the leading independent think-tank on Britain's constitution. But it has a warning for David Cameron, the new Tory leader, who has promised the Conservatives will ban Scots MPs from voting on legislation that does not affect their constituents. The Constitution Unit says that policy would effectively create an English parliament and a far bigger constitutional crisis than anything arising from the current anomaly. The study, carried out at University College London and published yesterday found that the government was relying increasingly on its Scottish MPs to vote through measures on which English members are rebelling. It would have suffered four losses in the House of Commons in the past 30 months if it had not been for Scottish Labour MPs backing the introduction of foundation hospitals in England, and student top-up fees for those studying in England. None of these votes have been since Labour's majority was slashed at last May's election to only 62. Among English MPs, the majority has fallen from 117 to just 43. But the new year features a severe test of the Blair government in pushing through its schooling, health, and policing reforms for England only. The researchers have pointed out that even a small rebellion among English MPs would trigger what they call "a decisive West Lothian vote". This refers to the West Lothian question, posed by Tam Dalyell, the former West Lothian MP, who asked why Scots should be able to influence policy in England when English MPs could not do so in Scotland under devolution. But yesterday's report warns about the Tory policy of giving the speaker power to designate a bill as one on which only English MPs could vote. "It would in effect create an English parliament within Westminster, and the potential for an elected UK government unable to legislate for England, its largest constituent part," said the report. "This would cause a constitutional crisis far greater than the West Lothian question itself . . . A more transparent solution would be to explicitly create an English parliament, but only 16% of the public support this option." The Conservatives have had a majority of English MPs while Labour has been in power after elections in 1964 and 1974. David Mundell, the Tories' shadow Scotland secretary, said the "English votes" policy was about fairness http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/53952.html

15-01-2006, 11:59 PM	#9 (permalink)
The Trooper Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Essex Posts: 48	What is the point in a so called English parliament? Was it not the English who conquered the Welsh and the Scotts? Basically what the English democrats are suggesting is that we give up these conquests, for some fanciful dream of England will be better on its own. If that was true we would not have conquered them in the first place. United we stand divided we fall. I mean i have Scottish blood in me, yet i personally regard Scotland as a region not a nation despite all the history. I mean we do not see a resurrection of the Mercians yet this would make just as much sense as an independent Scotland. We need to stick together. It was the British who built the Empire not just the English, we built somthing great together lets not forget this. I know what people mean about the Scotts having a say over our country etc, basically we need to remove the regional assembly of Wales and Scottish parliament. What the Labour party did by restoring them was to open up a whole can of worms which we did not need in the first place.